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Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #120 on: July 06, 2007, 11:01:30 AM »
Death Wish,

Calling someone "wrong" without giving a reason as to why, then supporting your claim with logic and reasoning won't cut it where I come from in Wisconsin.  I'm not interested in trading insults.

I'm sure you were a great minister. I never called you any thing. I choose to respect your training, as opposed to the other way around (putting my degree in quotations and calling it's validity into question, for instance).

Also, as to the scripture in question: my "interpretation" is the interpretation stretching back to the Early Church. "Rome has spoken, it is finished." ~Augustine. I don't think calling me as being "out of context" is entirely logical given the near 2000 year history of people who have interpreted it in the same way (again: if we are talking about the keys given to the first Pope).

Either way, this is not nearly as important as the main point.

Anywho:

Is not one going to ever comment on definition of faith that I've given twice, the proper relationship between faith and acts which I've given twice, among other points advanced?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 11:03:52 AM by Neoinarien »

Stain.

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #121 on: July 06, 2007, 11:31:31 AM »
Also, as to the scripture in question: my "interpretation" is the interpretation stretching back to the Early Church. "Rome has spoken, it is finished." ~Augustine. I don't think calling me as being "out of context" is entirely logical given the near 2000 year history of people who have interpreted it in the same way (again: if we are talking about the keys given to the first Pope).

Just because 2000 people jump off a cliff to their death, does that make it right?

no.

By comming up with a logic, a central figure of a sect has made it the logic of that sect.  Everyone in that sect (due to my belief that people are lazy and will not research something on their own) will quote what that person has put as undeniable truth.  In the early church, your catholic church, the only person who could read the bible was the bishop, or priest guy. yes?  Then wouldn't it seem logical that what ever he said was taken as absolute with out question?

My point made.  I'm not insulting you.  Many people who are smart can misinterpret things.  it's called a mistake.  it happens.  but your failure to realize that you've made a mistake is what makes it a failure... failure to realize that what you are doing has been done wrong.  is it in vain?  no. but after you have been told you are wrong, shown how you are wrong, and continue to do what you do, that is vain.

Next time I read in the bible about penance i'll believe more about the catholic doctrine. Next time I read the words "you will have a pope who is my authoritative voice to all man kind (God speaking)" I'll believe that.
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Guardian

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #122 on: July 06, 2007, 01:43:50 PM »
Here's something you will find interesting.  St. Thomas Aquinas is my favorite theologian.  Notice the quote I have in my signature?  "Holy Teaching should be considered among the highest of wisdoms, indeed not in some special category, but unconditionally"  From his Summa. Introduction to i.vii.responsio if I remember correctly.

Now let me point out where you faulted in understanding Aquinas:
our actions are meritorious in so far as they proceed from the free-will moved with grace by God.

Aquinas is very very clearly saying that works are a result of saving grace, which is received by faith.

There is no dispute that works and faith go together, any Protestant that says differently, frankly, has no idea what they're talking about.  The difference is, again, modern Catholics argue that works are a CAUSE of Salvation, while Protestants (as well as the before mentioned Church Fathers) argue that they are a RESULT of true Salvation.

Further, what did you pull that response from? The context of the entire section is solely faith.  Titled quite literally "The Act of Faith"  The "act of Believing/Faith" is the only thing which is discussed in this section, and yet it is discussed in such a way as "What must we believe to be saved?" if you were to put it into modern simplified English.  Interestingly enough, nowhere in this, are other works mentioned as any part of Salvation.  Not only does Aquinas argue Sola Fide, but this chapter you quoted from is "Sola Fide" meaning, the only "work" if you will that it even discusses in relation to Salvation, is faith. =)

For the record, I've also read the Summa, and I've written two papers, and done a class presentation on Aquinas.  He is also hailed by a number of modern Evangelicals as a great theologian according to Protestant beliefs as well.  In fact, many Reformers will argue that the Catholics have gravely misinterpreted his work, even though they consider him quite literally the Doctor of the Church.  This is based on the fact that the Council of Trent was little more than an anti-Luther moment more emotionally charged, than theologically sound.  That is why the Church Fathers can be found to disagree with it so easily, and rarely any other.

Also keep in mind, Luther's point was never to break away from the Catholic Church, but to Reform it.  He believed that it had drifted away from what it was supposed to be, which also was what it had been.  Luther himself appealed very much to several of the Church Fathers. 

Another point, yes, our works are meritorious, AFTER we are saved.  We do not receive saving grace by our works, but we do receive the rewards of the faithful.  The "crown" that Paul describes as running the race for.  These are blessings and rewards beyond Salvation, they are not a part of Salvation however.

Once again, you also seem to misunderstand the proper Sola Fide doctrine.  Perhaps you have heard it explained poorly by too many Protestants who think they understand it, and don't. 

James is my favorite book in the Bible.  James 2:26 is one of my favorite verses.  Ask some of our older members, and they will tell you, I had that verse in my signature for nearly 3 years.

To make it clear, let me put it in the words of Calvinist doctrine.

"If a man claims to have saving faith, yet his actions are not in line with his faith, then he doesn't really have faith, and he is not saved."

In a sense, a tree is measured by its fruit.  If you say you are a tree, you do not produce fruit after a certain period of time, then we can look at you and say, "You are not a tree".  On the other hand, if you are a tree that was just planted, you're not going to show much fruit at first, even though you may really be a tree.  Later however, fruit will begin to grow if you are truly a tree.

Translated into theological terms:
"In a sense, a Christian's faith is measured by their works.  If you say you have Christian faith, and you do not produce works after a certain period of time, then we can look at you and say, "You are not a Christian."  On the other hand, if you are a new believer, you're not going to show many signs because you have not had time to mature, even though you really are a Christian.  Later however, because you mature, fruit will begin to grow if you truly are a Christian."

Simply put, "If you really have faith in something, then your actions will show it"
Example, if I truly believe in God, I'm not going to rob people, murder them, insult them, etc.  To say "I fear God" and then to say "I hate people" is a contradiction of terms.  Being that your actions show you "Hate people", they prove that your heart truly has faith in that hatred of man, not your love for God.  Thus your faith is not true.  You believe, but you believe even as demons believe.  They believe God exists, and yet they still rebel.
Now, say you're a thief and murderer.  You acknowledge that Christ is Lord, and you place your faith in him.  Maybe you mess up here and there because old habits (the old man) sometimes dies hard.  But as you grow in faith, you stop hating people, and start loving people.  This is an example of true faith.  Because the person truly does believe in God, they show it in their actions.

Quite simply, if I believe in a bridge, I drive across it and expect not to fall into the water.
If I don't believe in the bridge, I don't drive across it, I go another way.

Its ridiculous to say, "I believe in the bridge, but I'm not going to drive across it, because I'll fall into the water."  You say one thing, but you obviously don't have true faith in it.

Again, all of this means, that actions are a necessary CONSEQUENCE of true faith and salvation.  But they are not a CAUSE of true faith and salvation.

You are saved by faith, and faith alone.  But if you are truly saved, works will follow. - Reformist position.
You can not be saved by faith alone, you must have works BEFORE you can be saved, and must continue to work in order to remain saved - Catholic Position

The Protestant belief does not (should not at least) ignore the necessity of works in the life of the believer.  It simply places them in their proper position. AFTER Salvation, and NOT before.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2007, 06:46:35 PM »
Guardian,

Thanks for the reply. I only have time to get to some of the Aquinas stuff.

Both Catholics and Protestants agree that one is saved by Grace alone. But, what is Grace?

Simply put, there are different types of grace (which Augustine, Luther, etc, all spoke of).

I hate to link to websites (guilty twice now in this discussion) but I am low on time. So a brief search came up with a pretty decent explanation as to what I mean. The important distinction is actual grace vs. sanctifying grace. This operates in accordance with James 2 (which again, I apologize for not even having a chance to read right now your response on that).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

The last sections seems to be the reader's digest.

Thanks again Guardian

Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #124 on: July 06, 2007, 07:16:19 PM »
Deathwish,

Quote
Next time I read the words "you will have a pope who is my authoritative voice to all man kind (God speaking)" I'll believe that.
  Next time I read the words "go forth and ignore the Church and system I put in place, and multiply making denominations after denomination until theres 50,000 of them all claiming my authority"  I'll believe that.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 07:22:51 PM by |CoR| Merlin »

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2007, 01:52:16 PM »
Guardian,

Oh, I follow very much the evanglical view on works. They are not part of faith, they are not part of salvation. They are external signs of an internal saving faith.

But the verses I quoted still stands. 3 points.

1. The definition of faith, as I quoted from the Bible no where even comes close to saying that gain a surefire certainty of salvation, which you cannot lose which equates to faith. So the "Assurance" is not found in Hebrews 11:1 definition of faith.

2. James specifically says that you are NOT saved by faith alone. Faith without works is dead.

NASB:

James 2:17, "...so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
James 2:20, "But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?"
James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

As is plain to see, the Bible literall says, "...not by faith alone."

They are not saying, "faith alone saves, but if someone doesn't do good acts this shows they have non-saving faith." The author is specifically saying, you are not saved by faith alone. You are saved by a combination of faith and works. Plain and simple in the text.

Demons have faith that there is God. But their faith doesn't do them any good because they do not conduct the works (largely because they are incapable, Gen 6:4, Enoch, others).

3. I also gave reference to Jesus saying we are judged according to our works. Faith increases our grace which allows us, in turn, to be empowered by God and to do acts of mercy and charity (Paul, everywhere) which are judged as meritorious. Jesus himself says we are Judged according to our deeds. James does too.



Aquinas,

Just a couple more thoughts on Aquinas.

If Aquinas is a Solad Fide Protestant, why does he support the Catholic view of the Eucharist?

"I answer that, It is absolutely necessary to confess according to Catholic faith that the entire Christ is in this sacrament."

Protestant? http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/131/ST._THOMAS_AQUINAS_ON_THE_EUCHARIST.html

If Aquinas is a Sola Fide Protestant, why does he support penance?

http://www.theworkofgod.org/devotns/Euchrist/Topics/summa_penance.htm#PENANCE%20(QQ[84]-90)

If Aquinas is a Sola Fide Protestant, why does he says the Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation?

"Consequently it is necessary for the sinner's salvation that sin be taken away from him; which cannot be done without the sacrament of Penance, wherein the power of Christ's Passion operates through the priest's absolution and the acts of the penitent, who co-operates with grace unto the destruction of his sin. For as Augustine says (Tract. lxxii in Joan. [*Implicitly in the passage referred to, but explicitly Serm. xv de verb Apost.]), "He Who created thee without thee, will not justify thee without thee." Therefore it is evident that after sin the sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation, even as bodily medicine after man has contracted a dangerous disease."

http://www.theworkofgod.org/devotns/Euchrist/Topics/summa_penance.htm#PENANCE%20(QQ[84]-90)

If Aquinas is a Sola Fide Protestant, why does he say that mortal sins cannot be pardoned except by penance?

"It is impossible for a mortal actual sin to be pardoned without penance"

http://www.theworkofgod.org/devotns/Euchrist/Topics/summa_penance.htm#OF%20THE%20EFFECT%20OF%20PENANCE,%20AS%20REGARDS%20THE%20PARDON%20OF


I could go on at length, but I think you see that Aquinas is not a Sola Fide Protestant, but a loyal son of the Church.



Re. Luther,

Yeah, I'm with you on this one Guadian. Luther, when he started, wanted to reform the Church from within. But when he met resistance, to varying degrees, he moved to attacking the Church from without.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 01:54:03 PM by Neoinarien »

Guardian

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2007, 04:05:32 PM »
Don't have but a minute here, so going to be brief.

First, I never ever described St. Thomas Aquinas as a Protestant.  He is pretty much the definition of a Roman Catholic, prior to the Council of Trent.  What I'm arguing is that Trent departed from Thomistic theology a bit, on the relation of faith and works.  However, he also believes that Salvation is something that must be maintained.  He definitely is not of the Eternal Security camp.  While he believes faith is all it takes to become saved, he does not believe that faith alone keeps you saved.  This is not uncommon even in Protestant circles.  Wesleyian theology for instance, believes that you are saved by faith alone, but believes that you can lose your salvation if you do not live the Christian life afterwards.

To clarify Thomistic theology.  If a man like the thief on the cross declares faith in Christ, he is saved.  However, if a man who has twenty years of life ahead of him declares faith, he is saved at that moment.  However, if he fails to live out that faith in action through works, including in his view, the sacraments, then that salvation is lost to him.

Sola Fide means we are initially saved by faith alone.  Both Wesleyian/Armenians and Calvinists believe that.  They vary slightly on what it takes to remain saved.   Both agree that works SHOULD ALWAYS follow Salvation however, and if there are no works, then the person was not truly saved/lost their salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  -9-  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:14-17  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  -15-  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,  -16-  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?  -17-  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

14-17 is the heart of James' argument, especially if you understand that the logic of the day presented its arguments chiastically, meaning the main point of the argument was in the center, not the beginning or the end.  It looks like this in structure

A.
   B.
      C. Main Point
   B.
A.

If you put the teaching of Paul and James together, it is not difficult to determine how this works out.  If you ignore Paul in favor of James, or vice versa, you'll get pretty messed up though.

We are not saved by works, we are SAVED by FAITH alone.  Else how could the thief on the cross have been saved?  What works did he complete?

However, true faith WILL ALWAYS manifest itself in works, given the opportunity.  The point of James entire argument is, that if someone claims faith but does not show it, there IS NO FAITH.   This is not because works are a component of faith, but because works are an unavoidable result of faith.

The whole point of the faith/works relationship as stated by the Church Fathers and the Reformers, was that faith brings us to Salvation in which we receive the grace of God.  And if that faith is true, of course it will result in works.  Not because works save us, but because saving faith always results in works.

This is illustrated here:
James 2:15-16  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,  -16-  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

That is not faith.  Dead faith is the equivalent of invalid faith, lack of faith, wrong faith, non-faith, whatever you want to call it.  Dead faith means there is no faith.  If you are certain something is true, you will act upon it based on that certainty.  If you have faith in Christ, who said "Feed the hungry, and clothe the naked" and a brother or sister comes up to you hungry and naked, and you do nothing but wish them well, you have dead faith, because you don't have any faith.  If you really had faith, you'd have really believed Jesus when he gave the command, and you would have obeyed.

So once again

Works are a necessary CONSEQUENCE of Salvation, not a CAUSE of Salvation.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #127 on: July 07, 2007, 06:02:55 PM »
Guardian,

Few things that still need a respons when you get a chance:

Definition of Faith: According to the definition of Faith that I presented from Hebrews 11:1, faith is basically believing in God. James references this as well.

Aquinas: still wondering why Aquinas requires Penance and the Sacraments if a person can be sustained and saved by faith alone, in the Sola Fide sense.

Jesus saying we are judged by our deeds

Aquinas: well, before you were saying he was Sola Fide. That's about as Protestant as one gets. If you are saved by Sola Fide, why do we need anything else? We don't need the Eucharist, Penance, etc. That's the contradiction that I'm wondering.

Moving on to your response.

I think there is a something that needs to be cleared up. Catholic theology does hold that there are circumstances where people can be saved by faith. The "good" thief is a prime example, or a death bed repentance. No one is saying that faith doesn't save alone, simply that for most people who aren't making a death bed confession, or something of the sort, good works are part of the necessary equation for salvation. Jesus said we will be given in heaven according to our deeds. We will be judged according to our deeds.

If know God through faith, but then neglect his call to holiness thru continuing to perform bad acts, then you are to be judged.

Faith is the response to actual Grace. Just as Adam and Eve fell from Grace thru their works and Abraham was jusitified through his works, so too can a person fall from Grace, while even believing that there is a God. As Jesus said, we will be judged according to our deeds, and rendered according to our deeds. If you have faith (Hebrews 11:1) that God exists, this is great. But demons beleive this as well. Faith is great, faith is good, faith can open the way to salvation, but for people who lead their lives in the fallen world you need to have penance and perform works of mercy and charity (Aquinas, Paul, James).

RedXIII

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2007, 07:50:46 PM »
im not going to go into some huge paragraph here. just something simple that popped in my head. i dont even feel quite adequate to share in this conversation the way you guys are going.
first off, way before when you qouted something in james:
"21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Abraham offered his son Isaac, as i believe by faith. not to show his good works but to show his faith in God.


I think there is a something that needs to be cleared up. Catholic theology does hold that there are circumstances where people can be saved by faith. The "good" thief is a prime example, or a death bed repentance. No one is saying that faith doesn't save alone, simply that for most people who aren't making a death bed confession, or something of the sort, good works are part of the necessary equation for salvation. Jesus said we will be given in heaven according to our deeds. We will be judged according to our deeds.

If know God through faith, but then neglect his call to holiness thru continuing to perform bad acts, then you are to be judged.

Faith is the response to actual Grace. Just as Adam and Eve fell from Grace thru their works and Abraham was jusitified through his works, so too can a person fall from Grace, while even believing that there is a God. As Jesus said, we will be judged according to our deeds, and rendered according to our deeds. If you have faith (Hebrews 11:1) that God exists, this is great. But demons beleive this as well. Faith is great, faith is good, faith can open the way to salvation, but for people who lead their lives in the fallen world you need to have penance and perform works of mercy and charity (Aquinas, Paul, James).

The judging of good works or deeds when you die and stand before God, that wont come unless you have faith and believe. Good works wont lead to salvation as Gaurdian has been proving, they follow in good faith. To be judged at all you must first reach the gates of heaven where God speaks to you.

but alas that is my nineteen year old words without much research or thought. i am of course a still growing christian, i have much to still mature in. I will never claim to know everything there is to know.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 07:55:28 PM by |CoR| RedXIII »

I thank God that he is God and acts like God because he is God but God makes God look so Godly...

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #129 on: July 07, 2007, 09:01:41 PM »
Red,

Thanks for contributing.

What you are getting at though, is PRECISELY what I am getting at.

You said that in order to be judged you have to have faith. I'd call that pretty spot on in light of what Jesus said in the quote I gave from Matthew. Either way you cut it, you aren't going to heaven unless you have faith corresponding with sanctifying works, empowered only by God. Faith opens the door, but without the works as a general rule, it's a no go.

Stain.

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2007, 09:20:23 PM »
care to point out a scripture to back that up?  You are bringing old testament law into the new testament mode of salvation.  Acording to the new testament - a revision of the old testament - if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Where does works fit into that?
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|CoR| Vette

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2007, 09:34:48 PM »
Well, the biggest issue I have with that is that the Catholic Church takes it much further: not only are works required for salvation, specific works are required for salvation (quoted from an old thread about baptism):

Well...if baptism was the only other thing Catholics felt was necessary for salvation, I could overlook it.  (Not that I would agree with it.)  However:

Claveau says all these are necessary for salvation:

We must also love God completely and our neighbor as ourselves.
We must keep the Commandments.
Good works are necessary for salvation.
We must eat His body and drink His blood.
We must hold out to the end. (As it is possible to lose our salvation.)

The Catechism also teaches:

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation:  776 As sacrament, the Church is Christ's instrument. "She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all," "the universal sacrament of salvation," by which Christ is "at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God's love for men."199 The Church "is the visible plan of God's love for humanity," because God desires "that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit."200

Penance is necessary for salvation:  980 It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church:

    Penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers "a laborious kind of baptism." This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.525

Observance of the natural law is necessary for salvation:  2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78

The sacraments are necessary for salvation:  1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation:  1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




|CoR| Whyte Horseman

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #132 on: July 08, 2007, 12:33:43 AM »
Deathwish,

Quote
Next time I read the words "you will have a pope who is my authoritative voice to all man kind (God speaking)" I'll believe that.
  Next time I read the words "go forth and ignore the Church and system I put in place, and multiply making denominations after denomination until theres 50,000 of them all claiming my authority"  I'll believe that.

Wow... that was weak.  You have yet to prove that God directly established the Roman Catholic Church as the central and ONLY church.   Personally, I love arguing.  I also love to insult or mudsling as you call it in arguments to prove the other side is corrupt.  I have been relatively quiet, considering I was trying not to jump into this because of my reputation.   However, this comment not only made me laugh, it also really made me mad.  Deathwish has a point.   There is nothing in the Bible that says "I, the LORD now appoint this dude to be pope, and his words are infallible. Oh yeah, and Hail Mary."  With your comment, I expected to see some twisted form of a Bible verse to go along with that saying the the Catholic church was the one true church, but no, you don't have one.  Show me that verse, I'm curious?
Ranger "Just guesstimate where the bombsite is and hold the action button."  the action button... silly noob

Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #133 on: July 08, 2007, 03:26:05 AM »
Wow that was weak, and that is your circular reasoning u guys use, your frustrated when I use it back, that makes me chuckle, show me a verse in the bible where it says Jesus founded your church on pastor (Insert Pastor's name here).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 03:32:03 AM by |CoR| Merlin »

|CoR| Legolas

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #134 on: July 08, 2007, 03:29:30 AM »
Who is pastor Dan?
|CoR| Legolas*GI*     
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Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2007, 03:31:22 AM »
Guess I should have said pastor (insert name here)

RedXIII

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #136 on: July 08, 2007, 08:47:49 AM »
i dont believe anyone has said that the bible tells us to follow a "pastor" in the church. they only said it doesnt say "here's a pope, listen to him only". your statment still did not answer whyte's question. we could go on about catholics. praising mary like shes a god, umm getting wasted is ok...only if you're catholic though. i think its obvious through time and history the reform was an amazing needed thing. i'd go as far as to say God himself had a hand in it. I could go on, having a personal relationship with God and Jesus is what being a christian is a lot about, not having to go through a meduim to get to your lord and savor. I also believe he gave us all the divine power to find out the bible for ourselves, God wouldnt let us lead astray from our own misinterpretation, let alone make one man in the whole world be the only one right or holy enough to know "all" about the bible. no wait there was...his name was Jesus but thats right, wasnt he God's son or something.

I thank God that he is God and acts like God because he is God but God makes God look so Godly...

Guardian

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #137 on: July 08, 2007, 09:51:30 AM »
Neoinarian, I'm afraid that our debate is somewhat hindered, primarily by the fact that you do not seem to properly understand the concept of "Sola Fide."  This however is quite common (just as much so among Protestants who actually believe it, as it is with others who do not believe it.)  Primarily because Sola Fide has been pulled on a little bit too much in the 500 year debate of faith and works from the Reformist and Catholic perspectives.

Let me again clarify:

Works are an essential part of the Christian's life.  Christ said: "If you love me, you will obey my commandments"  That pretty much shoots any idea that works aren't necessary, right through the head.

The Reformation leaders, Luther especially, never said differently.  In fact, Luther is famous for having told Zwingli, another famous Reformation leader, that he would not see Zwingli in heaven, solely because Zwingli held the view that the eucharist was symbolic.  In many ways, Luther was still very much a Catholic, even after splitting from the church.

How is it then, that Luther believes in Sola Fide?  Because Sola Fide first believes that only living, true, legitimate faith is saving.  Not the dead faith that James speaks of.  But while they believe that faith is all it takes to be saved, (Eph. 2), they do believe if there are no works that manifest afterwards, then that faith was never there, and the person was never saved (James 2)

Thomistic theology follows the same line of thought.  Only faith is necessary to become saved.  But the soul that truly has received the love of Christ, WILL seek to cleanse itself of sin, and be pleasing to God (in his mind, through the holy sacraments of the church).

And again I say, because your arguments still fail to grasp this point,

The view of the church fathers and reformation leaders was that works are a CONSEQUENCE a RESULT an EFFECT of Salvation, not a CAUSE, not a PREREQUISITE, to Salvation.


What's beautiful about this understood theology, is that there are no need for exceptions.  You don't need to make up all the exceptions like with the thief on the cross, or how "people who are about to die are an exception" or "baptism of desire for those who wanted to be baptized, but didn't have the opportunity" and all those such things.  You don't need to make up things to fill in the pieces.  The system just works naturally.

And most beautifully of all, it worked during the time of the Apostles, and in the centuries after before the Roman church began.  Before the church had developed its seven sacraments, and Ave Maria, and its long list of patron saints, and the Vatican, and papacy, and so on and so forth.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #138 on: July 08, 2007, 11:56:02 AM »
Replied to: Death Wish,

Death Wish,

I've been quoting exclusively from the New Testament (then in the very last post I made reference to a few Old Testament). I think you should try reading one of my posts before you argue that I use exclusively OT. :)

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2007, 12:16:05 PM »
A fun brief Catholic response to the question, "Are you saved?", as posed from an evangelical..

"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

I came across this from a site. It also gets the good old:

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Guardian

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #140 on: July 08, 2007, 02:12:29 PM »
So lets see.

I am already saved - from eternal judgment
I am being saved - from my sinful nature, through sanctification
I have the "hope" that I will be saved - This one I don't get.  You have a hope that you will be saved?  Not the confidence?  Lets look at the references.

Romans 5:9-10  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  -10-  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5 seems to say pretty clearly that if we are saved, we WILL be saved, not that we might be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  -13-  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  -14-  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  -15-  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ok, well if Christ is the foundation, and we build upon Christ (if we are saved, and live based on his commandments) then there is no possibility of our work being burned away.

So why would you say that you are saved from judgment, and at the same time, hoping that you will bes aved from judgment?

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Stain.

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #141 on: July 08, 2007, 03:15:30 PM »
Replied to: Death Wish,

Death Wish,

I've been quoting exclusively from the New Testament (then in the very last post I made reference to a few Old Testament). I think you should try reading one of my posts before you argue that I use exclusively OT. :)

My brain explodes when I read to much... :D
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Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
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|CoR| Gamil

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #142 on: July 08, 2007, 07:06:18 PM »
In Matthew 16:19, is the greek word for "you" plural or singular?

WOW, i haven't had the time the last few days to keep up in this thread, man I got a lot of reading to do. But Lego to answer that question. the greek word used for "you" is σοί, it is singular. hehehe, I like having my Strong's concordance with my Interlinear Bible. I can look up any word and what it's translated from. :laugh:

« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 07:26:56 PM by |CoR| Gamil »

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|CoR| Legolas

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #143 on: July 09, 2007, 12:21:28 AM »
In Matthew 16:19, is the greek word for "you" plural or singular?

WOW, i haven't had the time the last few days to keep up in this thread, man I got a lot of reading to do. But Lego to answer that question. the greek word used for "you" is σοί, it is singular. hehehe, I like having my Strong's concordance with my Interlinear Bible. I can look up any word and what it's translated from. :laugh:



Thank you!
|CoR| Legolas*GI*     
*STAR* and *PiG* Official Member.

**Eleet computer builder club - 7 Fan Wonder**

Parents need to cowboy up.

Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding.

Neoinarien

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #144 on: July 09, 2007, 06:57:13 PM »
Guardian,

I think I have a pretty clear and accepted definition of Sola Fide. You are saved by faith alone with good works flowing as a natural consequence of this saving faith, not part of it. If you're considering this definition to be incorrect, then maybe we should turn back to Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Melancthon and friends.

I've never had someone tell me, throughout of speaking appointments and opportunities that I've been lucky enough to get (including one just yesterday to a group of baptists), that I'm 'missing' on Sola Fide. So I don't really know what to say.


----------------


Unfortunately, I am moving between states this weekend and the packing process is in full effect. As a result I've been quite busy. I won't be able to keep up with this as much, as a result (I have to still be able to get online and play!).

After this weekend, sometime around next Wednesday I hope to be back and humming.

Guardian

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #145 on: July 09, 2007, 08:53:17 PM »
Quote
Aquinas: still wondering why Aquinas requires Penance and the Sacraments if a person can be sustained and saved by faith alone, in the Sola Fide sense.

That is where you showed a lack of understanding in Sola Fide.  If works do not follow faith, there is no faith.  Thus a "Belief" alone can not sustain somebody.

And Aquinas would even say that the Sacraments are FOR Christians, not for non-believers.  Thus you have to be saved, in order to partake in the sacraments.  Makes it kind of hard to receive salvation by works?

Let me ask you this... if works are required in order to be saved, what works then must you complete to receive salvation?

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

FightingFat

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #146 on: July 18, 2007, 04:33:10 AM »
I think I can summarize the entire Catholic-Protestant debate with one single question:

Is it possible for someone to read the Bible, and only the Bible, and be saved?

Anything is possible. Salvation is God's business not man's. However, God's Revelation was deposited orally, Jesus did not commit what he wanted to teach to any book. Scripture is explicit about the need for the faithfull to hold on to the Apostolic Traditions they had been taught.
"Social justice can never be attained through violence, violence only destroys what it intends to create" ~Pope John Paul II

|CoR| Vette

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #147 on: July 18, 2007, 08:56:49 AM »
Really?
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Stain.

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #148 on: July 18, 2007, 09:08:32 AM »
I think I can summarize the entire Catholic-Protestant debate with one single question:

Is it possible for someone to read the Bible, and only the Bible, and be saved?

Anything is possible. Salvation is God's business not man's. However, God's Revelation was deposited orally, Jesus did not commit what he wanted to teach to any book. Scripture is explicit about the need for the faithfull to hold on to the Apostolic Traditions they had been taught.

Doesn't the book of Timothy boast that the bible is "the inspired word of God"

What about "in the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."?

*********

I still have an issue with you saying (maybe in a different thread) that the upper room experience was limited to those in the upper room. 

I also have an issue, still, with the Pope being the only direct line between us and God.

And Catholics praying to Mary for grace, or whatever you guy's pray to saints about.  in my books, that'd be idolatry.

Let the accusations of mudslinging take place. :D
Evga 680i A1 | e6600 @ (testing oc's) | 7900gs ko | G.Skill 2x2gb 800mhz 4.5.4.15 | antec trio 550w | zalman 9500at | WD se16 250GB | WD 500gb | Seagate 500gb | p180b (modded) (1.25tb)
Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
**Eleet computer builder club - Master builder**
Need a PC, send me a pm/email.  I'll build it for ya.
1TB Club | 80gb club
Need someone prank'd?  Hit me up.
crutch - All you gotta do is throw a twinkie on the ground and I'm done.
Anti DB Squad.
I flirt.

Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #149 on: July 18, 2007, 09:38:13 AM »
*takes on his trucker cb voice* Here's the deal:  I would like to invite you guys over to the Catholic Forum, that way we can discuss whatever you wish and we can hear other Catholic opinions then my own.  Here is the link, and I believe the appropriate board would be the inter-religious board I think it is called?  Anyways post back what board you started in so I can follow it over there! http://forums.catholic.com/index.php?