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Black Knight

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2007, 12:26:42 PM »
To respond to the initial question.

Yes...it is possible.

However, if that is all that is needed for salvation then why then is the following a command and commission from the Lord Himself?

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

We are commanded to go and make disciple of all nations...doing what?

1. "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

2. "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you"

Why would Our Lord have given such a command if it was optional?

The idea that the Bible alone is all that is needed to be saved is a modern doctrine no more than 500 years old, despite n-C teachings to the contrary.

If reading the Bible alone is all that is needed, then how did the early church come to salvation since it took over 300 years for persecution to end  and then nearly 100 years more for the councils of Carthage and Hippo (Catholic councils in fact) to end the discussions as to what was inspired canon and what was not?

Moreover, though the New Testament writings were in circulation, so were the Gnostic gospels and quite a few other heretical or spurious documents purporting to be inspired and it's not like Matthew or Paul finished up their writings and just bopped down to the Jerusalem Kinkos and had copies run and then faxed all over the world to the churches.

In fact, until about 1455 there was no way to create printed texts as we know of today and so for 14 1/2 centuries the Word of God was transmitted how?

By hand copying by the monks and other clergy of the Catholic Church and the reading it to the people by them. It was not just a matter of copies being difficult to create and share (Have any of us ever sat down and sought to hand copy long segments of any part of the Bible? Try it sometime. It will give you something to think about in regards to those 14 1/2 centuries. :rolling_lol: ) Copies were in fact chained to pulpits to prevent them from being stolen because they were so very rare, but they were there for those who could read to read. Yes, they were in Latin, but the fact is that prior to the advent of the printing press, every one who could read, read Latin primarily.

My point is this. The idea that reading a copy of the Bible is the primary way for someone to come to Christ is (again) a very modern thinking, and it holds even less credence in modern cultures where the literacy level of the people is too low to make that practical. This is another reason that this belief is illogical and impractical even in modern evangelism.

There is a very good book on all this called, Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. by The Right Rev. HENRY G. GRAHAM if anyone is interested. It's not very expensive at all. :icon_biggrin:
Blackie
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:29:37 PM by Black Knight »
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
The Peace of the Lord be always with you.
Matthew 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. 12 And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. 13 And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.

Guardian

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2007, 12:55:35 PM »
For the record, I just got done with a Directed Research course with a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies, on the topic of Biblical Text Criticism, so this is a topic I'm well read on.

With establishing the African canon, that was honestly, a very simple task.  The four gospels especially were easy to pick out, despite so many gnostic gospels.  The reason being, because they were widely accepted throughout all the church.  Gnostic gospels were usually not widely circulated, in fact, it was rare you'd see a non-inspired writing in more than one of the five major church areas.  As for the New Testament epistles, again... easy picking.  They went with the ones that could be traced back to the Apostles.  If we had more letters written by Paul and Peter and the crew, we'd have used those.  But again, by 400AD all of the epistles were widely circulated in all 5 major church regions.  The only two other books left, would be Acts which is so strongly connected to the gospel of Luke, that that was obviously put in, and Revelation which was traced to the pen of St. John claiming divine inspiration and thus also included.

Now the Roman Church also certainly did much to preserve the scriptures, and there's no question when it comes to the Latin Vulgate, that it is one of the best preserved Biblical Texts out there.  However, I can say after all of my long research, that even if the Roman Catholic church had not done a thing to preserve the scriptures, we still would be able to construct the entire New Testament, from manuscripts found outside of the influence of the Roman Church.  I will say though, this would not have been possible until the last century or two, as most of the findings were made between the 19th and 20th centuries. 

Also, the point of their questions Black Knight was, "Can the gospel of Christ alone save you?"  But they put it in the question of "Can reading the Bible alone save you?"  To point out that it is receiving the Gospel of Christ outside of the priesthood of Catholicism. 

As far as the commands of the Great Commission, let me make it very clear. Obeying the things the scriptures teach us to do is NOT optional.  Works are necessary, not as a cause of salvation, but as a consequence, as a proof of salvation if you will.  You can not be saved, you can not claim to love Christ, if you do not do what he has told you to do.

But once again, works are a CONSEQUENCE of Salvation, not a CAUSE of Salvation.  That is what Sola Fide argues... and over and over again, Romans interpret Sola Fide as meaning no works are needed anywhere, which is a grave misunderstanding of the doctrine.

Also the fact that the doctrine has not been widespread for more than 500 years, isn't a valid argument.  The Catholic Church has solidified a number of doctrines, even within the past 500 years, that were not considered dogma before then.  The idea behind the doctrine has been alive as long as any other belief in Christianity.  It was not made widespread until the Reformation however.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Stain.

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2007, 01:00:35 PM »
historically, before mass publication houses were around, stories were told via word of mouth.  Jews (israelites) were mandated to memorize the ENTIRE pentichuke (first 5 books of the bible) by the time they were 13 years old.  With a standard that high amongst jews, and israelites, Im certain that the christians took the the epistols, and memorized them, and spread it via word of mouth.

I've said it before,  If you need more than the bible to be saved, then you are taking the Word, and rendering it impotent and not the all powerful authoritative word of God by which you can be saved.
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I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
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I flirt.

jmc15john

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #153 on: July 20, 2007, 01:16:50 PM »
Hey,
       For the first question, I do believe that you can only read the bible and be saved.  It's not to hard of a question, someone somewhere picks up a bible, reads through enough of it to realize what a diciple of Christ is and gives his/her life to the Lord.

And for what y'all have been debates with Catholic vs. Protestant viewpoint you do need to realize that Catholics aren't saved. 
You Cannot Work Your Way To Heaven.  The bible clearly teaches that, but the Catholic church does not, the Catholics teach that you must work your way to heaven.  That's why they have purgatory, if your not good enough.  Catholics believe that if there good enough and confess all there sins they won't have to go this made up place purgatory.  They don't think Christ's sacrafice was sufficient for them, and they will be paying off some of their sin in purgatory, when in reality they will be paying it off in hell.
         If you could work your way to heaven they why did Jesus die?  If your not 100% sure that your going to heaven when you die then your not going.  Because you will know if Christ has taken hold of your life.  And please see that the Catholic church is not the Church of Christ, and that Catholics are not Christians, sure I do think there are probably some Christians in the Catholic church but the vast majority of them are not.  And those that are Christians in the Catholic church aren't catholic because you can't believe what Catholics teach and be saved.  And you are leading others astray, you are telling others to accept a god of man, and you are leading them to Hell.  Please do not point people to the Catholic church because to do so you are pointing them away from Christ Himself, to a man made religion.  Please do not take this lightly and exam what scripture says, nothing you do gets you to God. 

COR Forum, we need to stop arguing with these Catholics and start evangelizing to them.  They are lost, they think they are saved and are in for a rude awaking, and since there here to talk we need to talk, but we cannot accept them as saved and justify their damnation. 

I'm praying for y'all.

John-Mark


Here's a little Q&A with John MaCarthur...

Question:

Can somebody belong to the Roman Catholic Church and be saved?

Answer:

Yes, but they cannot be saved by the Roman Catholic gospel for it is false, however, they can be a "Catholic" and get saved by the true gospel. At this point they are no longer technically a "Catholic" because they have yielded to a different gospel, not the false Catholic one. To stay in the Catholic Church after being saved would be difficult because of the many teachings that are clearly false. Ideally, as the new "Christian" grows in the faith and understands more of the Bible they will see the lies and hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church and leave. If a person claims to be a true Christian, and yet stays in the Catholic Church, supporting her doctrines, then that "could be" evidence of a false salvation.

|CoR| Gamil

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #154 on: July 20, 2007, 09:25:44 PM »
John-Mark, man, prepare for a wall of resistance, accusations of flaming(mostly from Merlin), I think what will be gotten from Merlin, if he still even looks at this thread is a very brute response. Guardian, Newman, prepare to see a lot of quotes/links from catholic sources which don't relate to the topic.

Playstation Network ID: Gamil
SWTOR: Server: Shadow Hand Character: Gamil

|CoR| Blackhawk

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #155 on: July 21, 2007, 02:07:52 AM »
In other words, you might want to hold your temper. Merlin will verbally lay into you, I know that from experience. I understand where you are coming from, I have tried a similar argument... and what do I get? Merlin about ready to explode, because he has a closed mind and won't listen to or try to what anyone is saying.

@Merlin

Will you please read what John-Mark posted thoroughly before you post?

Think before you speak... it is entertaining to watching you lose it over a theologian discussion... and giver other sources, not just from the catholic point of view.
"The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth me in the paths of righteousness for his names sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord fore ever." Psalm 23

Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #156 on: July 21, 2007, 05:54:39 AM »
Quote
The bible clearly teaches that, but the Catholic church does not, the Catholics teach that you must work your way to heaven.  That's why they have purgatory, if your not good enough.  Catholics believe that if there good enough and confess all there sins they won't have to go this made up place purgatory.  They don't think Christ's sacrafice was sufficient for them, and they will be paying off some of their sin in purgatory, when in reality they will be paying it off in hell.


  John-mark, you sound so ignorant, it is sheer ignorance that statement you typed, you have NO idea WHAT you are talking about man, you do not know ANYTHING that the Catholic church teaches as made by that statement, glad you are taking God's judgment upon yourself and damning all "Catholics" to hell (thats not anti-Catholic at all...)  John-Mark you are planting what we call 'seeds of confusion' any informed person that has done ANY amount of studying of the Catholic faith, and Christianity AT all would not make such ludicrous absurd statements, and it agitates me more the smart sarcastic remarks made before I even post by Gamil and Hawkens it makes me question your true motives. 

  Are we ready to move these discussions to the Catholic Answers Forums yet is my question??? http://forums.catholic.com/index.php?  board you should post under is "Non-Catholic religions." please let me know what the title of your thread is when you post and I will follow up with you over there! :)

jmc15john

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #157 on: July 21, 2007, 12:02:10 PM »
Mathew 10:14

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

Acts 18:6

But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean From now on.

Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #158 on: July 21, 2007, 12:03:54 PM »
wow you can quote scripture very good, JMC moving these discussions to Catholic Answers Forums follow the link above and head on over!

Black Knight

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #159 on: July 21, 2007, 07:19:48 PM »
I've read some of MacArthur's stuff and he misrepresents Catholic teaching. I have yet to understand precisely why, whether it is intentional or poor scholarship or what.

The fact is that his statements that John-Mark has believed, namely, that Catholics believe that we can work our way to heaven, is grossly inaccurate.

Also, the statement made above that Catholics go outside the Bible for what we believe is a gross oversimplification.

Most of you n-Cs embrace many non-biblical traditions of your own (Altar calls, the sinner's prayer, accepting Christ as Lord and savior. wearing wedding rings, etc) while making allegations about the Sacred Tradition (The historically verifiable writings of the early church.) that most of you have never even heard of. The effect is that most modern post reformation n-Cs actually tend to act as if the 1500 years of Christianity prior to the reformation did not exist, and have since formulated your beliefs upon modern readings of the Bible without reference to those Sacred Traditions.  The result is that you have no check to see if what you teach has been held by the early church.

I, as most of you have stated, one's works have no bearing upon our judgment before God, then please explain to me what Our Lord Himself was saying in the following passage of the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Blackie
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 08:18:22 PM by |CoR| Guardian »
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
The Peace of the Lord be always with you.
Matthew 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. 12 And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. 13 And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.

|CoR| Vette

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #160 on: July 21, 2007, 08:47:04 PM »
As many have stated before, we believe that good works naturally follow salvation-I can call myself a Christian all I like, but if my lifestyle doesn't bear those beliefs out, if I don't "practice what I preach," it would be very questionable as to whether or not I actually believed. 

Just as an example, if I tell my husband that I love him, but I treat him like dirt and never do anything for him, I don't think he would believe me, do you?  But then, I can do nice things all day long and be doing them for many motivations other than love, so my love for him is not in the things I do for him.  Real love is a relationship, one that says "all of me, everything I was, am, and ever will be is yours."  As a result, doing things for him is a natural consequence-not because I have to, but because I want to. 
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




|CoR| Gamil

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #161 on: July 21, 2007, 09:16:16 PM »
wow you can quote scripture very good, JMC moving these discussions to Catholic Answers Forums follow the link above and head on over!

you don't seem to be understanding what John-Mark is saying. He's saying that since you won't listen to him, it's on your head if you are spend eternity in the fire. And he did it entirely with biblical scripture. There is no way to find any fault in his last statement.

and why don't you believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Quote from: Hebrews 9:8-14
Hebrews 9:8-14
    8 The R320 Holy Spirit is signifying this, that R321 the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer F84 tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both R322 gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot R323 make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food R324 and drink R325 and various washings, R326 regulations R327 for the body F85 imposed until a R328 time of reformation. 11 But when Christ appeared as a high R329 priest of the good R330 things to F86 come, He entered through the R331 greater and more perfect tabernacle, F87 not R332 made with hands, that is to say, not R333 of this creation; 12 and not through the R334 blood of goats and calves, but through R335 His own blood, He entered R336 the holy place once R337 for all, having F88 obtained eternal R338 redemption. 13 For if the R339 blood of goats and bulls and the R340 ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing F89 of the flesh, 14 how much more will the R341 blood of Christ, who through the R342 F90 eternal Spirit offered R343 Himself without blemish to God, cleanse R344 your F91 conscience from dead R345 works to serve the R346 living God?
FOOTNOTES:
F84: Lit {first}
F85: Lit {flesh}
F86: Two early mss read {that have come}
F87: Or {sacred tent}
F88: Or {obtaining}
F89: Lit {purity}
F90: Or His {eternal spirit}
F91: One early ms reads {our}

 
CROSS REFERENCES:
R320: Hebrews 3:7
R321: John 14:6; Hebrews 10:20
R322: Hebrews 5:1
R323: Hebrews 7:19
R324: Leviticus 11:2ff; Colossians 2:16
R325: Numbers 6:3
R326: Leviticus 11:25; Numbers 19:13; Mark 7:4
R327: Hebrews 7:16
R328: Hebrews 7:12
R329: Hebrews 2:17
R330: Hebrews 10:1
R331: Hebrews 8:2; 9:24
R332: Mark 14:58; 2 Corinthians 5:1
R333: 2 Corinthians 4:18; Hebrews 12:27; 13:14
R334: Leviticus 4:3; 16:6,15; Hebrews 9:19
R335: Hebrews 9:14; 13:12
R336: Hebrews 9:24
R337: Hebrews 7:27
R338: Hebrews 5:9; 9:15
R339: Leviticus 16:15; Hebrews 9:19; 10:4
R340: Numbers 19:9,17f
R341: Hebrews 9:12; 13:12
R342: 1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Peter 3:18
R343: Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 7:27; 10:10,12
R344: Acts 15:9; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3; 10:2,22
R345: Hebrews 6:1
R346: Matthew 16:16; Hebrews 3:12

Know what that passage is saying? if you read the context of the cross references in Exodus, it's saying that Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins. So what would you say Jesus did by being a sacrifice for our sins? I'd say that he saved us, so that's a savior. And since he is God, he is Lord.

If you base your entire argument for works being necessary upon the verse you quoted you get that to be saved you need need to feed, clothe, shelter people or visit in prison an apostle. If that's the case, why be a Christian or a Catholic? No apostle still lives, so we're all going to the pit anyway. But obviously that's not right.

Now notice that the passage says that the sheep were taken to the right hand of God. Jesus is the Good Shepard. So you must be a follower and believe in Jesus to be saved. And if we are sheep, what do sheep do? they just follow a shepard, grow fur and wait to be sheared. So in the analogy that we are sheep, there is no support for works being necessary either. The Bible clearly says that by works Alone you can't be saved.

So it's saying that your works won't save you, you need something else.

What support is there for praying to Mary or the Saints. What can they do? You are praying to someone OTHER than God, that's not a good thing. It's the same thing as putting the person on an equal level as God.

Why check to see if what we belie was held by the early church. Saying that is like saying that the early church was infallible. If that is so, then why did Paul have to constantly correct the early churches. There was no single early church, there were many. They sprang up wherever apostles went. Not to say they were started or founded by the apostles but to say that those people in the area where the apostles preached set up the church to teach others and to praise Jesus.

But ONCE we are saved, by our works there will be more in heaven for us. I seem to remember something biblical about storing up treasures in Heaven rather than on earth.

Here's something which is one of the biggest problems with catholicism. PURGATORY. Catholics are taught that unless they are really bad, they go to purgatory for so long and its duration is determined by the sins we've committed. Where does that come from? The verse you(blackhawk) quoted leaves no room for purgatory.

I don't think the sinner's prayer can save you. Some denominations teach it can, and I believe they are wrong. It is one of those things which is a really big problem in churches and I think it is a misunderstanding which Satan has planted in the churches and has fuel the deceiving and undermining fire that it is. I have prayed it several times, but I look back, and I realize that I wasn't saved by praying it. I haven't said it in YEARS. I can look back, and I believe that I wasn't saved until only a few months ago. If It wasn't for my friends John-Mark (yes the John-Mark here, jmc15john) and Will at college, I'd be heading down a very BAD path in my life right now.

What's wrong with an altar call? It's a person coming forward to SAY they accept Jesus Crist's Sacrifice for their sins and that they want to follow Jesus' example and be Christians. They want to praise Jesus. Doing an altar call isn't necessary to be saved, I haven't ever done one, and I do believe I am saved. And what's wrong with a wedding ring? It's a symbol that you are married. It's a reminder that you are BOUND to the person you are married to. It's a sign to others that you are off the market. And Catholics wear wedding rings too. It's not a religious tradition.

Salvation requires to to continuously work at getting closer to God. You must ALWAYS be growing in your relationship with Jesus.

Where is the biblical support that the Pope can speak for God?

Playstation Network ID: Gamil
SWTOR: Server: Shadow Hand Character: Gamil

Merlin

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #162 on: July 21, 2007, 09:23:44 PM »
Black you got his man lol I invited them to Catholic Answers forums *takes a seat in spectator box*

|CoR| Gamil

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2007, 09:07:35 PM »
so did I kill the topic?

Playstation Network ID: Gamil
SWTOR: Server: Shadow Hand Character: Gamil

Crossbearer

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #164 on: July 24, 2007, 05:36:23 PM »
I'm not Catholic, and I would say that, in a leteral answer to a question you cannot be saved just by reading the bible.  READING the bible.  The verb read (http://webster.com/dictionary/read if you want all the definitions) only deals with understanding adn interpreting characters.  Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  that's not a reading action.  SO being a fairly literal guy, i'd say no

Stain.

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #165 on: July 24, 2007, 06:07:41 PM »
Let me clarify what they mint.  Can you learn of salvation and obtain salvation by only reading the bible.  Yes. 

The way you interpreted it is "will reading the bible save you?"  to that the answer is no.
Evga 680i A1 | e6600 @ (testing oc's) | 7900gs ko | G.Skill 2x2gb 800mhz 4.5.4.15 | antec trio 550w | zalman 9500at | WD se16 250GB | WD 500gb | Seagate 500gb | p180b (modded) (1.25tb)
Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
**Eleet computer builder club - Master builder**
Need a PC, send me a pm/email.  I'll build it for ya.
1TB Club | 80gb club
Need someone prank'd?  Hit me up.
crutch - All you gotta do is throw a twinkie on the ground and I'm done.
Anti DB Squad.
I flirt.

Crossbearer

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #166 on: July 24, 2007, 06:14:53 PM »
In that case Yes 

I mean Romans 1 19-20 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

If we should know without even reading the bible, then i'd think after we read it we def. aught to.

Randy Carson

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #167 on: July 30, 2007, 05:02:29 AM »
again, you are scurting around the questions by refering to "www.catholic.com". 

the pope is not in the bible, or it's teachings.

Newman referred me to this thread to discuss "eternal security", but this post of yours caught my eye. Hope you don't mind me commenting on an older post like this.  :)

As I'm sure Merlin has pointed out to you, "pope", "Catholic", "transubstantiation" and a lot of other words are not found in the Bible. Neither is "trinity", "hypostatic union" or "Lutheran". So what? We use these words to understand and explain what the Bible teaches or to describe our theological systems. Does the word "pope" have to be in scripture in order for it to be a useful term? How about the word "rapture"? Is that in there? C'mon...

As for the teachings of the Catholic Church not being found in scripture...wow, that's kind of a blanket statement. Do you mean some or all? Or were you just typing in a fit of pique here?  :)

Quote
If you want to say "rebellious offshoot churches" then fine.  I'm cool with that.  would you say YOUR precious catholic church teaches things that aren't in the bible?

I believe that most (if not all) Catholic doctrines can be supported either explicity or implicitly from scripture. Of course, as a Catholic who recognizes both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, I myself am not bound by that constraint, but I think I could do so for your benefit for the most part. You might not agree with all my attempts, of course!

Quote
The saint of ..... (fill in the blank). 

This is not Tradition. This is tradition. Big T, little t. Very important to make the distinctions.

Quote
Pope.

I could explain the office from scripture if that would help...

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Back to where the "rebellious" church is right.

1901 - azuza street revival.  Ring a bell?  It was the start of the current 'penticostal' revival.  Students at a seminary sat around in a prayer circle  and prayed that the spirit of God visit them.  It did.  and they were changed.

In America. Not worldwide. Are you by chance familiar with the "Duquesne Weekend" which inaugurated the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church in 1967?

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Smith Wigglesworth - not a catholic priest, but healed MANY people in the name of Christ.

Don't forget Evan Roberts and the Welsh Revival, and let's not leave out Kathryn Kuhlmann or David DuPlessis (who was officially invited to attend the second Vatican Council as an observer, btw). I might even put David Wilkerson and Nicky Cruz into the mix along with Brother Andrew. These were used mightily of God, also. But why stop there? We should go back in time and mention Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and Jessie Penn-Lewis and T. Austin-Sparks, and many, many others. I have their books on my shelves. More recently, we've seen the Brownsville revival in Florida and Toronto blessing. Have you ever done "carpet time" at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship? I have. Twice. I've been to Rick Joyner's church in Charlotte and listened to Tommy Tenney preach in Washington and Baltimore...

Still, what is your point? That God moves in places outside the Catholic Church. Indeed, He does.

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If you're calling any 'christian' that is not part of the catholic church a rebellious seed, then I think you are wrong.  Not only are you wrong but you are frankly verry offensive to those of us who have dedicated many years, and countless nights ministering the name of Christ to those who don't know him.

I can't speak for Merlin, but I would say that those who are Protestant today are not personally guilty of the sin of separation. However, that separation did occur and those who were born into that separation do face the consequences of being separated from the Church, the Body of Christ. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

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817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

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As far as histroy goes, your precious catholic priests SOLD forgiveness,

This is a mischaracterization. Forgiveness of sins and indulgences (which relates to the temporal punishment for sins) are two separate things. The problem was that overlyzealous fundraisers blurred the distinction between giving alms and the granting of indulgences to the point that the very charge that you have made could be made.

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and preached things God doesn't speak of - purgatory ring a bell? oh, that's right.... History books are wrong.

Many are.  :) As for God not speaking of purgatory, perhaps you thing Paul was not inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

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Who's further off.  You tell me.

Okay. I think I just did.  :D

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I'm not saying there's a perfect church.  Where there's people, there's an imperfection. point given. I'm saying there's a godly way of doing things, and an ungodly.

Neither are we. The Catholic Church is not perfect; it is a human institution of divine origin. It is not impeccable. It is, however, by the Grace of God, infallible.

Hope this helps.  :)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 05:12:26 AM by Randy Carson »
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Randy Carson

Re: Question for Merlin
« Reply #168 on: July 30, 2007, 05:52:54 AM »
Know what that passage is saying? if you read the context of the cross references in Exodus, it's saying that Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins. So what would you say Jesus did by being a sacrifice for our sins? I'd say that he saved us, so that's a savior. And since he is God, he is Lord.

Jesus is Lord and Savior. Amen!

It's interesting that you mention Jesus as a sacrifice and reference Exodus. In the passage where God told the Jews to put the blood on the doorways, He also told them they had to eat the Lamb. What do you suppose would have happened if they had ordered Domino's instead?

You see, Jesus is our sacrifice, but you have to eat the Lamb. That's why Jesus gave us his flesh to eat and his blood to drink in the Eucharist. "Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no life in you." Pretty clear, isn't it?

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If you base your entire argument for works being necessary upon the verse you quoted you get that to be saved you need need to feed, clothe, shelter people or visit in prison an apostle. If that's the case, why be a Christian or a Catholic? No apostle still lives, so we're all going to the pit anyway. But obviously that's not right.

There are numerous verses supporting our need to cooperate with God's grace. Justification by Grace, yes. Justification by Faith Alone, not biblical.

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Now notice that the passage says that the sheep were taken to the right hand of God. Jesus is the Good Shepard. So you must be a follower and believe in Jesus to be saved. And if we are sheep, what do sheep do? they just follow a shepard, grow fur and wait to be sheared. So in the analogy that we are sheep, there is no support for works being necessary either. The Bible clearly says that by works Alone you can't be saved.

I love sheep analogies. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, no question. However, didja ever notice what Jesus did right before He ascended into heaven? He handed his crook to Peter. (cf. John 21:15-18) That's right...Peter is the shepherd of the flock who was to feed and care for the sheep. One flock. One shepherd. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Not 30,000 denominations and 30,000 shepherds. The divisions within Protestantism over the past 500 years are truly staggering.

However, when I read the scriptures, what I see is James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

Weird, isn't it? Paul wrote and wrote and wrote on the subject of justification, yet in all his works, neither he nor the Holy Spirit ever once put the words "faith" and "alone" together in one sentence to describe how we are justified. Only James did that, and he wrote "not by faith alone." No wonder Luther called the book of James an "epistle of straw" and tried to remove James from his German translation of the Bible!

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So it's saying that your works won't save you, you need something else.

Well, you'll get no argument from me here. The Catholic Church does not now nor has it ever taught justification by works.

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What support is there for praying to Mary or the Saints. What can they do? You are praying to someone OTHER than God, that's not a good thing. It's the same thing as putting the person on an equal level as God.

Hardly. Not all prayer is worship. I can talk to you and ask you to pray for me without putting you on an equal level with God. Why can't I ask other Christians who are already in heaven to pray for me also?

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Why check to see if what we belie was held by the early church.

Um, to see what the people who actually heard Jesus and the Apostles first-hand believed? I dunno...seems like a good idea to me.  :)

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Saying that is like saying that the early church was infallible.

No, it isn't. Reading the writings of the individual Church Fathers is not the same as saying that the early Church was infallible. They weren't. It was.

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If that is so, then why did Paul have to constantly correct the early churches.

The individual local communities were not infallible separately. Infallibility only applies to the ENTIRE church - that is, the Bishops of the whole Church in communion with the pope (who is infallible separately, but that's another thread).

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There was no single early church, there were many. They sprang up wherever apostles went. Not to say they were started or founded by the apostles but to say that those people in the area where the apostles preached set up the church to teach others and to praise Jesus.

Wrong. There was a single Church with lots of local congregations or "churches". Jesus has one body, remember? Not lots of bodies.

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But ONCE we are saved, by our works there will be more in heaven for us. I seem to remember something biblical about storing up treasures in Heaven rather than on earth.

Me too!

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Here's something which is one of the biggest problems with catholicism. PURGATORY. Catholics are taught that unless they are really bad, they go to purgatory for so long and its duration is determined by the sins we've committed. Where does that come from? The verse you(blackhawk) quoted leaves no room for purgatory.

That is a mischaracterization of the doctrine. I guess we need a thread on purgatory!  :)

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I don't think the sinner's prayer can save you. Some denominations teach it can, and I believe they are wrong. It is one of those things which is a really big problem in churches and I think it is a misunderstanding which Satan has planted in the churches and has fuel the deceiving and undermining fire that it is. I have prayed it several times, but I look back, and I realize that I wasn't saved by praying it. I haven't said it in YEARS. I can look back, and I believe that I wasn't saved until only a few months ago. If It wasn't for my friends John-Mark (yes the John-Mark here, jmc15john) and Will at college, I'd be heading down a very BAD path in my life right now.

Well, praise the Lord! I agree with your rejection of the "sinner's prayer" as an unbiblical "tradition of Protestant men."

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What's wrong with an altar call? It's a person coming forward to SAY they accept Jesus Crist's Sacrifice for their sins and that they want to follow Jesus' example and be Christians. They want to praise Jesus. Doing an altar call isn't necessary to be saved, I haven't ever done one, and I do believe I am saved.

I could provide links to some articles challenging altar calls, but in general, I would say that if it helps someone crystallize their commitment to Christ, okay. Whatever. Been there, done that. The problem, IMO, is with the "eternal security" doctrine that often goes along with it.

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And what's wrong with a wedding ring? It's a symbol that you are married. It's a reminder that you are BOUND to the person you are married to. It's a sign to others that you are off the market. And Catholics wear wedding rings too. It's not a religious tradition.

Nothing wrong with it. But it is an tradition...just not one that is necessary for salvation.

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Salvation requires to to continuously work at getting closer to God. You must ALWAYS be growing in your relationship with Jesus.

Now, we're back to works again...so, if someone does the altar call but no works, and dies 40 years later, is he saved?

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Where is the biblical support that the Pope can speak for God?

Lots of places. I would begin with Luke 10:16: "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Then I would refine the doctrine using other verses. However, I might be far more circumspect in defining "speak for God" than you might expect from a Catholic.  :)

Hope this helps.
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)