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Newman

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2007, 01:16:22 PM »
This whole "teaching" business is kind of a farce - kind of like the old adage, "Do as a I say, not as I do."  Basically it's a nice defensive tactic to excuse all the misdeeds of church leaders.  Plus, whenever they do write down something as stupid, you can just say, "Well, they were speaking on their own accord and were wrong."

From what I can tell, the Catholic Church has tried to continue the whole idea of a priesthood from the Old Testament.  The problem is, there were lots of times in the Old Testament that the priests were wicked and corrupt, and God turned his face against them.  If anybody could claim that they were "anointed by God" and were perfect in their proclamations, it was the priests - because they really were anointed by God!! But that blessing was pulled away when they sinned and left His plan.

If that was the case for the people who God did indeed say, "These guys represent me" - how much more so is it true for the modern church where God has not laid out a similar priesthood system?

One of the things that Jesus fought against the most was the Pharisees and their efforts to control access to God, and to add their own rules onto things.  I think the Pharisees live on and are represented by the Catholic Church and other denominations nowadays - think about it, if it was such a problem in Jesus' day, what makes us think it would go away?  The Catholic Church tries to add their rules onto Christianity, and also tries to setup a system where God speaks through the Catholic Church - so we all need to listen to them (and hence give them power).

All seems pretty obvious to me - the spirit of the Pharisees lives on.
I'm looking at you, muwhahaha!!!

Guardian

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2007, 02:06:11 PM »
Lets focus on this:

Quote
Also I remind that while some people in the Catholic church sinned and may have done bad things the Church as a whole never changed what it taught which is what our real deal is, if it was teaching its ok to  kill people etc. then I would MOST definitely have a problem.


I have somebody I'd like you to do a little history report on.  Pope Urban II, the Pope who started the Crusades (the First of them, which of course was the catalyst of the six major crusades that followed)

Here's a little snippit from one of his most famous speeches: (source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html )

First his introduction to his speech:
Quote
Most beloved brethren: Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God.


Quote
"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."


So there's no doubt here, he is speaking as "Christ's Vicar" as the Pope of the Roman Church.  And he's pretty much teaching, not only teaching, but commanding, or rather, saying that CHRIST commands that the peoples of Europe slaughter the Turks and the Arabs.  And not only that, but kill people and your sins are forgiven.  Great Catholic teaching there!

And Urban II wasn't even an antipope!  Clement III was the antipope of the day.  So I guess that card won't work either.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

|CoR| Gamil

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2007, 01:20:12 AM »
Ok Legolas but you do admit that the RCC put it together,  makes me satisfied with all this effort it really does, at least I got through to one person.  Legolas do you forget I believe in God as well?  of course we understand that the Holy SPirit/God working through the Catholic church did it, I thought this was a given but yes man could not have accomplished these things on his own it was of course with God's help and direction.  Now if the Catholic church (through God's guidance) put the Bible together then don't you think they should be a fairly good source to ask what interpretations on certain verses mean?  Legolas this question is to you.  Deathwish Im simply ignoring your mud slinging.

Ok now Merlin, at no time did I say that the RCC did not compile the BIble. I have said that the RCC compiled the Bible time and time again. Why do you persist in acting as though I have said the RCC did not. You give proof after proof after proof that it happened and NOT ONCE, even before you started giving proof, did I say that the RCC did NOT compile the Bible. (know what let me rephrase that, hte punctuation might mess you up: Not once have I said that the RCC did NOT compile the Bible) I have jsut said that the Catholic church did not write it.

You just keep making claims that we ignore you or are illogical and don't make sense and refuse to listen to Jesus. You slander me. And all I do is try to explain myself to you. You seem to completely ignore what I say, and just go one wiht you own thing. You don't take what I say and try to understand it, you just pick words out and paste quotes that have something to do with those words.

Or maybe it's just that I never used the exact phrase "The Catholic Church put the Bilbe together" which makes it impossilbe for you to comprehend what I say. Well sorry if to me, the word "compile" means the same thing.

Now before you respond to this, read it three times, mill it over in your head, take notes, and make bullet points on what I said so that you don't just go rambling on how I refuse to listen or read and how I'm not saved or how I don't believe Jesus.


Gamil,

  This thead is not about once saved always saved please stay on topic.

 
Quote
Did you seriously just claim that the Catholic Church AUTHORED the Bible, and OWNS IT? If that were true, it could not possible be the Word of God.
 
    It is what it is man, like it or not.

And this sounds an awful lot like you agreed with me saying that if the Catholic Church wrote the Bible it can't be the word of God. So, following the logic, you say that the Catholic Church wrote the Bible, and since you agree that if the Catholic Church wrote the Bible it can't possible be the word of God, so therefore you agree with the notion that the Bible is not the word of God.

I do believe that the Bible IS the Word of God. don't let this confuse you, I did not say that I think the Bible is not the word of God. The wording is a little risky, it could easily be taken the wrong way.

Now, not trying to "mud-sling" here, but jsut understand what you said. Hopefully if you made a mistake in what you said you will make amends somehow.

Oh and Merlin, Don't accuse me of not having a logical mind, I write computer programs, I do calculus integrals for fun, those are 2 things which can't be done without a good solid logic.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 01:34:57 AM by |CoR| Gamil »

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|CoR| Gamil

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2007, 01:28:55 AM »
merp.... sorry bout that...I meant to edit the last one,

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Merlin

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2007, 04:47:27 AM »
Guardian,

  Just from the quotes that you posted, it seems quite obvious that Churches and the people were being destroyed by these people, and the Pope is calling them to their defense.  It says they have lost 7 battles, so if they were truly under siege then it would be perfectly acceptable for the Pope to rally so save the Church and the people in them, I don't understand why this is wrong?  There is a time for peace, and a time for war.

FightingFat

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2007, 04:30:20 AM »
I have somebody I'd like you to do a little history report on.  Pope Urban II, the Pope who started the Crusades (the First of them, which of course was the catalyst of the six major crusades that followed)

So there's no doubt here, he is speaking as "Christ's Vicar" as the Pope of the Roman Church.  And he's pretty much teaching, not only teaching, but commanding, or rather, saying that CHRIST commands that the peoples of Europe slaughter the Turks and the Arabs.  And not only that, but kill people and your sins are forgiven.  Great Catholic teaching there!

And Urban II wasn't even an antipope!  Clement III was the antipope of the day.  So I guess that card won't work either.

I think it vastly oversimplifies things if we look back at the Crusades with modern eyes and say they were simply wrong and evil. Islam was an enormous threat to Christendom and still is today. Muslims still believe that we will all be converted to Islam by either peacefull means, or by the sword. The Muslims had invaded Christendom held Spain and in 732 they crossed the Pyrenees and were only turned back at Poitieres, by Charles Martel. This is surely one of the most important battles in history on its outcome depended whether Christian Civilization would continue or Islam prevail throughout Europe.
The Crusades ceased because of petty squabbles amoung the princelings of Europe. The Pope couldn't get anyone to spend money saving the Byzantines and as a result we lost the Holy Land to Islam (it was ours from the Roman conquest remember). The loss of sites like Hagia Sophia must be painful to all of us. The Muslim threat persisted and another important battle was the Seige of Malta in 1565 when 500 knights of St. John Hospitallier held off the Muslim hoards of 48,000. Again, loss would have meant that the Ottomans would have taken over Europe and Christianity would have faded.
As Islam gets more and more vocal will there be another call to arms, another "Crusade"? Has it started already? Would you fight to preserve your Christianity?
"Social justice can never be attained through violence, violence only destroys what it intends to create" ~Pope John Paul II

Merlin

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2007, 09:41:02 AM »
*takes on his trucker cb voice* Here's the deal:  I would like to invite you guys over to the Catholic Forum, that way we can discuss whatever you wish and we can hear other Catholic opinions then my own.  Here is the link, and I believe the appropriate board would be the inter-religious board I think it is called?  Anyways post back what board you started in so I can follow it over there! http://forums.catholic.com/index.php?

Newman

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2007, 08:50:58 PM »
I have somebody I'd like you to do a little history report on.  Pope Urban II, the Pope who started the Crusades (the First of them, which of course was the catalyst of the six major crusades that followed)

So there's no doubt here, he is speaking as "Christ's Vicar" as the Pope of the Roman Church.  And he's pretty much teaching, not only teaching, but commanding, or rather, saying that CHRIST commands that the peoples of Europe slaughter the Turks and the Arabs.  And not only that, but kill people and your sins are forgiven.  Great Catholic teaching there!

And Urban II wasn't even an antipope!  Clement III was the antipope of the day.  So I guess that card won't work either.

I think it vastly oversimplifies things if we look back at the Crusades with modern eyes and say they were simply wrong and evil. Islam was an enormous threat to Christendom and still is today. Muslims still believe that we will all be converted to Islam by either peacefull means, or by the sword. The Muslims had invaded Christendom held Spain and in 732 they crossed the Pyrenees and were only turned back at Poitieres, by Charles Martel. This is surely one of the most important battles in history on its outcome depended whether Christian Civilization would continue or Islam prevail throughout Europe.
The Crusades ceased because of petty squabbles amoung the princelings of Europe. The Pope couldn't get anyone to spend money saving the Byzantines and as a result we lost the Holy Land to Islam (it was ours from the Roman conquest remember). The loss of sites like Hagia Sophia must be painful to all of us. The Muslim threat persisted and another important battle was the Seige of Malta in 1565 when 500 knights of St. John Hospitallier held off the Muslim hoards of 48,000. Again, loss would have meant that the Ottomans would have taken over Europe and Christianity would have faded.
As Islam gets more and more vocal will there be another call to arms, another "Crusade"? Has it started already? Would you fight to preserve your Christianity?

What you say makes sense if you believe that Christ came to setup a physical kingdom here on earth.  If you realize that He instead came to setup a *spiritual* kingdom, it doesn't make any sense at all.

Jesus talked about it over and over because it was a hard concept to understand - it's *still* a hard concept to understand.  The amazing thing is that Christianity doesn't need to be defended with violence - take a look at how the disciples all responded to persecution, and how that affected early Christianity.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 09:18:09 PM by Newman »
I'm looking at you, muwhahaha!!!

Merlin

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2007, 08:51:08 AM »
Quote
He instead came to setup a *spiritual* kingdom, it doesn't make any sense at all.
  From Newman,
   Hmm Newman I would argue that there already was a spiritual kingdom in Judaism, they were the chosen people of God, but rather Jesus came to reform the law and the Jewish church. (and obviously die so that sins may be forgiven).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 08:52:41 AM by |CoR| Merlin »

|CoR| Vette

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2007, 09:42:36 AM »
"20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:  21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21

"36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."  John 18:36
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




|CoR| Legolas

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2007, 10:14:32 AM »
The Kingdom of heaven couldn't have possibly been before Jesus. There had to be purification and the blood of Jesus had to wash away all our unrighteousness before anybody could live in that Kingdom.
|CoR| Legolas*GI*     
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Merlin

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2007, 05:58:35 AM »
Quote
There had to be purification and the blood of Jesus had to wash away all our unrighteousness before anybody could live in that Kingdom.

 
  Um, the Kingdom existed Legolas but remember that Jesus had to die to OPEN the GATES so that we MAY enter the kingdom, isn't that biblically correct?  He descended into Hell and took the keys of life from the devil and open the gates, Heaven existed aka. the Kingdom, but untiL Jesus came we could not enter into it.
  Are we ready to move these discussions to the Catholic Answers forums yet?  http://forums.catholic.com/index.php? post under 'Non-Catholic religions' and respond with the name of your thread and I will follow up with you there.

Stain.

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2007, 10:14:05 AM »
Sounds like you're giving up, and don't have all the answers or they don't make point a and point b connect.
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Merlin

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2007, 12:02:10 PM »
sounds like I want you to come to the Catholic answers forums, come over or just say your refuse to dont mud-sling some more.

Merlin

Re: History of the Bible, en espanol La Biblia.
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2007, 04:18:00 PM »
Deathwish,

 can you wife post on here, can you have her explain to me WHY she left the church, if you dont mind please.