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Merlin

Catholic Answers Forums
« on: July 21, 2007, 06:01:27 AM »
I am registered as David Vestal, on the Catholic answers forums, for all of you that have been debating with me, I wish to move these discussions OVER to the Catholic answers forums.   Are we ready to move these discussions to the Catholic Answers forums yet?  http://forums.catholic.com/index.php? post under 'Non-Catholic religions' and respond with the name of your thread and I will follow up with you there.
  There are much more knowledgeable Catholics there that can provide better answers then myself, and I do not have the time with my job anymore to research and answer so many questions and accusations from so many people.  Open a thread with what you wish to discuss under non-Catholic religions and post the thread name here and I will gladly follow up with you on that board, thanks guys appreciate it!

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2007, 09:04:19 AM »
No thanks, I like it here.  And quite frankly, from reading the Catechism and attending a Catholic church for years, I have all the answers I need about Catholicism.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Stain.

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2007, 10:06:37 AM »
My wife WAS catholic.  I've heard all the inaccuracies about catholicism from her.
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Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2007, 12:07:22 PM »
Ok for those of you that refuse I wont be debating with you anymore, it shows the true light of your posts, really just wanna troll then learn, if you really wanted to learn AND or defend your position then you would have no problems going to CAF.  "I like it here" it just a really lame cope out however that is your choice.  Bullet I am glad you are all knowledgeable I will continue to learn about my loved Church and what God teaches us until I die, its a continual learning process, glad you got everything figured out ... so you dont wanna come to CAF then I am done debating with ya's, I am not doing it on the COR forums anymore.  Think you really know your game I CHALLENGE you to come to CAF and PROVE it, don't be scared they are very loving and welcoming over there very good people, and the actual staff of Catholic Answers gets involved in the discussions its very nice!

Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2007, 12:08:32 PM »
Deathwish make a account on CAF, also is it possible for your wife to make a screen name and have her make a thread discussing WHY she left the Church?

Newman

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2007, 02:08:01 PM »
Merlin, most of us are simply trying to convince you of the problems that exist within the Catholic church - if we wanted to read Cathowikipedia articles that you call responses, we could search the internet and find plenty out there.

And please quit spamming every thread with your Catholic forum announcement - you've posted it about 10 times, enough!  If people want to go over there, I think they have gotten the message.  If you refuse to discuss things here for whatever reason, fine, then just stop posting.  The only people on the Catholic side of things who have been interesting are the friends who you bring in to backup your arguments - they seem to at least have some reasonably good debating skills, even if they do usually flame out after one round of posting.

For the future, try to learn from good debates on here or on the Catholic forum (I'm sure you must have some good examples there).  Not to be a jerk, but your debating skills are absolutely horrible, and you have a lot to learn from people who are more experienced.  Some of the biggest things we've all gotten annoyed with:

1)  Go light on posting articles.  Most of the time they don't deal with the specific questions people are asking, and imply that you don't understand the subject, so you're going to let somebody else do the talking.  A debate has to be real - people responding to each other, otherwise we could each just post articles from all over the internet and never get anywhere.

2)  Don't take things personally.  You get angry at what people say, you reveal that anger in your post, and that destroys your credibility.  A hot-headed person has never won a debate.  Your string of "booting to the head" people who disagreed with you was an example of something that most would consider a childish behavior.

3)  Don't dodge the question.  You've done a lot of this - saying that you already answered a question when you didn't, or posting an article that didn't apply and then get mad at people when we point out that the question still isn't answered.  Respect the other side enough to understand what they're asking (it may take time), and *THEN* go find an answer.  You are basically in the mode of throwing back whatever resources you can find, even if they don't apply - but that isn't a debate, that's a fight.  A debate is intended to further knowledge on *both* sides, through logic and (potentially) new information.

I don't have a grudge against you - if in the future you want to convince people that your side is correct, you'll learn from some of these mistakes and from some of the tactics more experienced people use.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 02:11:41 PM by Newman »
I'm looking at you, muwhahaha!!!

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2007, 03:53:58 PM »
Why should I join and post on a Catholic forum for your convenience?  If you feel that there are more knowledgeable Catholics out there and that they can better answer our questions, then by all means, direct them here.  However, they should be prepared for some very hard questions to which "because Peter was the first Pope and the Catholic Church is the only true church" won't be acceptable as an answer.  And we all know enough to back up our arguments with Scripture, and we don't accept the pat Catholic answer of "the Bible isn't the sole authority on matters of faith" answer.  So, in all reality, there can be no understanding between Catholics and those outside of the RCC.  There are too many differences between Catholicism and the rest of Christianity which cannot be easily answered, and you will never convince me that Catholicism has it right.  Therefore, call it what you will and flame me all you like, but no, I will not be joining the Catholic forum. 

The basic debate comes down to this:  as far as the RCC is concerned, you need Jesus + a lot of other things to be saved, and as far as Protestants are concerned, all you need is Jesus-nothing else can save you, and nothing else need be added.  Once you have a relationship with Him, church membership, baptism, and good works are consequences of that relationship.    Our eternal destiny is secured at the moment of our acceptance of Him, and we do not have any further debt to pay.  We can't earn salvation, we can't lose our salvation, and our future is not in doubt.  We don't have to pray to anyone other than the Trinity-no intermediary is necessary.  We don't have to ask Mary or any other "saint" (indeed, all Christians are saints) to guide us, help us, or pray for us.  The RCC makes slaves of it's followers-billions of people believing that they are never quite good enough, and that they must give more, pray more, go to church more, and just maybe one day they will be "good enough."  But salvation is not something we can earn, it is the free gift of God given to all who ask for it. 
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2007, 05:00:49 PM »
All,

 That is fine if you refuse to come on the Catholic forums, then I will refuse to continue on with my debates, I will post my Catholic opinion on some people's questions however I will not debate 6 page threads anymore.  I tried to ask Catholics from CAF to come here but my post was deleted and I got a warning from forum admin saying I cant ask people to swarm another forum :( 
Newman, some of the attacks are personal and anyone can see that not ALL are but some of them are for example JMC-Mark-john saying all Catholics go to hell, which is so ignorant doesn't merit a response. 

 
Quote
we can't lose our salvation
  Can you show me scripture that teaches this Bulletproof?

Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2007, 05:41:31 PM »
Quote
indeed, all Christians are saints
 
 
Bullet, can you show me in the Bible where this is taught?

Guardian

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2007, 06:55:47 PM »
Quote
indeed, all Christians are saints
 
 
Bullet, can you show me in the Bible where this is taught?

The word Saint appears 62 times in the New Testament... I recommend starting by looking at how its used over and over and over again.  Let me give you a few examples of the 62:

Acts 9:32  And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Acts 26:10  Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Romans 1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:25  But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

1 Corinthians 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

And here's a great one:

1 Corinthians 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Another good one:
Ephesians 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Philippians 1:1  Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

There's plenty more you can look up if you'd like.

Merlin, as for the Catholic Forums, the only reason why I'm not going to go there, is because I just don't have time.  Between these forums, and another forum that has a large population of every branch of Christianity, as well as its cults and the sort, I can't handle another section of debate.  Unfortunately, when I debate a topic, I don't just google to find the closest article and copy and paste it, so it takes me a bit of time.

But for the sake of fairness, don't put down on the people here who refuse to post on that forum, when obviously your fellow catholics refused in kind to come and post here, or when you have said that you do not intend to continue debating any further.  That would be slightly hypocritical.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2007, 08:22:55 PM »
Quote
we can't lose our salvation
  Can you show me scripture that teaches this Bulletproof?

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."  John 10:27-28
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2007, 09:33:29 PM »
Quote
I don't just google to find the closest article and copy and paste it, so it takes me a bit of time.
  Anyways

Bulletproof this scripture is saying that no person can pluck us from God's hand, however this does not teach that we CAN not lose our salvation.  Here are some scriptures that make it quite clear to us that we CAN lose our salvation.

Quote
22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
  Romans 11:22

Quote
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
  Hebrews 10:26-29

Quote
20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.
  2 Peter 2:20-21

 
Quote
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
  matthew 7:21

Quote
27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
1 Cor 9:27
 

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2007, 09:55:42 PM »
"38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Romans 8:38-39

In fact, read the entire chapter of Romans 8.  It summarizes very nicely the eternal security of the believer.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Guardian

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2007, 11:07:07 PM »
Eternal Security really is a tricky doctrine.  I will say this much as Jonathan Edwards once put it,

"The Doctrine of Eternal Security, when rightly understood, has brought great comfort to many,
And when wrongly understood, has lead many a soul to hell."

The verse that has always made me wonder though, is Rev 3:5
Revelation 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I lean towards a position of Eternal Security personally.  But there's a lot of speculation in regards to how to interpret "blotting out a name from the book of life."

I believe that people, do undergo great changes in their life.  I do think there are people that have had sincere and devout faith in Jesus Christ, in a very true sense, that have lost it.  Many many, if not all Christians, have at some point doubted their faith.  Many of them find their faith even on the other side of the doubt.  I think some end up losing it.

I think faith is the "card of security" if you will.  Scripture says that if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, that Jesus is Lord, and God raised him from the dead, that we are saved.  I think that's a very secure statement.  Now obviously, one man can not see another's heart, so its difficult to judge whether or not someone is sincere when they say they believe in Christ.  And I do believe that that faith will somehow somewhere manifest itself in godly ways.  But still, the point is, I think as long as you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and God raised him from the dead... then you have absolute security of salvation.

What I ponder is, what if someone reaches a point where they honestly did believe in it at one point, and stopped?  When they did confess it, but stopped?  So many want to go right after them and say they were never true believers to begin with.  But at the same time, what about the Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, etc. that we try to lead to Christ?  Do we accuse them of not truly believing what they believed, because they stop putting their faith in false gods (or no god) and put it in Christ?  I've rarely heard such a thing done.

If someone no longer has faith, yet they did at one point have faith, I think that's different from "sinning your way out of grace" or "falling from grace".  I think that that is something distinctly different.  Its not like losing your keys, its more like getting a free car, having the free car for awhile, then taking your keys, and giving them back to the car dealer.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2007, 11:50:25 PM »
Guardian,

  I am specifically dealing with what bulletproof said, that we can not lose our salvation. 

  Bullet,

  I read it and the Bible does not teach that we can not lose our salvation, in fact from the verses I quoted above we can see quite clearly that losing our salvation is very much possible.  We need to be very careful to think that you can not lose your salvation, because bullet if I CANT lose my salvation as you claim would that not give me a license to commit sin, particularly mortal sin because I "cant lose salvation" as you say?  But as we are examine the scriptures here it is clearly not taught what you claim that we can not lose salvation, does the Bible teach it?  No, did the apostles teach it? No, did the early Christians believe in such a idea, no.
  Lets closely examine
Quote
1 Corinthians 6

10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

  So if you are a Christian and claim to be "SAVED" but you are one of these things listed in this verse do you mean to tell me you are going to heaven anyways because you CANT lose salvation according to you bullet?

|CoR| Shocknat

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2007, 11:55:01 PM »
wow... I thought you said you weren't going to debate with us anymore...

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded."
The man can't lift his arms anymore after all that he has given to this country. The media can show pictures of him beating seals with clubs and I am still voting for him.

Newman

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2007, 01:31:56 AM »
  I read it and the Bible does not teach that we can not lose our salvation, in fact from the verses I quoted above we can see quite clearly that losing our salvation is very much possible.  We need to be very careful to think that you can not lose your salvation, because bullet if I CANT lose my salvation as you claim would that not give me a license to commit sin, particularly mortal sin because I "cant lose salvation" as you say?  But as we are examine the scriptures here it is clearly not taught what you claim that we can not lose salvation, does the Bible teach it?  No, did the apostles teach it? No, did the early Christians believe in such a idea, no.
  Lets closely examine
Quote
1 Corinthians 6

10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

  So if you are a Christian and claim to be "SAVED" but you are one of these things listed in this verse do you mean to tell me you are going to heaven anyways because you CANT lose salvation according to you bullet?

This issue is more involved than you may realize - we've brought it up before, if you would like to debate it, start another thread and get it going.

This isn't a Catholic vs. Protestant issue, not all Protestants believe the same thing here.

A professor I had in college had a devotion where he broke it down into three options:

1)  You are saved once, and no matter what you do after that, you are going to heaven.

2)  You are saved once, but you can choose to reject your salvation in the future, and once you lose it - you can never get resaved.

3)  You are saved once, you can choose to reject it, and then you can get resaved again.

He threw option 3 out as seeming to be pure lunacy, which leaves the other two options.  He wasn't sure which one was the right answer.  You do have to wonder, would God force somebody to go to heaven who openly rejects them in the later part of their life, even though they had believed in Him in their youth?  Likewise, if somebody follows Christ, then rejects Him, then follows Him again - would He turn them away?  I remember God with the Israelites, and He allowed them to be stubborn and turn away into darkness, but He always welcomed them back if they repented.  It's harder, however, when talking about eternal judgment - the tough thing about this, is that God is the ultimate judge, and whatever He manages to do is going to be righteous and just.

Once again, this is a question that really only matters because we're trying to see how close to the "salvation" line we can get.  Notice that the focus in this question is not, "How can I serve Christ better in my life?"  If you spend your life asking that question, you don't have to worry about this eternal security business (in my humble opinion).  Sin and our wicked hearts causes us a lot of worries - if we just follow God, life is fairly simple.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 01:37:40 AM by Newman »
I'm looking at you, muwhahaha!!!

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 09:36:09 AM »
Bullet,

  I read it and the Bible does not teach that we can not lose our salvation, in fact from the verses I quoted above we can see quite clearly that losing our salvation is very much possible.  We need to be very careful to think that you can not lose your salvation, because bullet if I CANT lose my salvation as you claim would that not give me a license to commit sin, particularly mortal sin because I "cant lose salvation" as you say?  But as we are examine the scriptures here it is clearly not taught what you claim that we can not lose salvation, does the Bible teach it?  No, did the apostles teach it? No, did the early Christians believe in such a idea, no.

You know, if I was the only one that believed the way I do, I might trust your opinion when you say that the bible doesn't teach it.  However, since there are millions of people out there, many of them far, far more knowledgeable about the Bible than I am, have the same opinion, I just don't believe you.  And please stop with the "clearly not taught" and "I have proven" stuff, because it is always applied by you to something that is neither clear nor proven.  BTW, don't just quote the parts of text that support (or can be made to seem like they support) your argument: 1 Corinthians 6:9 makes it clear that Paul is describing the unrighteous: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" and verse 11 makes it clear that such things no longer describe the righteous: "11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."  As for the "license to commit sin" Paul deals very specifically with that in Romans 6.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 09:48:56 AM »
Newman,

  What we also have to realize is the significance of saying, well I said I believe in God and Im saved and thats it.  It is very dangerous because we read that God spits those who are "lukewarm" out of His mouth, from the scriptures I posted we are warned over and over by the Apostles about salvation and how if we turn to evil ways we can be "cut off".  There are several spiritual things wrong with this idea and the first one would be accountability:  God call us all to lead a life of Holiness and we try to stride towards Holiness by avoiding occasions of sin (Including mortal) and the inclination to sin this is what is part of what motivates us to Read the Bible, to goto Church, and to receive the sacraments Jesus gave us to receive His sanctifying grace and strength to try and stay on the path of Holiness.  If we believe in this notion of 'I cant lose my salvation' it really takes us down a path of a extremely different mentality and attitude of our spiritual walk.  It does several things, it removes out accountability before God i.e. "I cant lose my salvation God doesn't care how I live my life anymore"  and it also would give us a license to commit sin i.e. "its ok I can fornicate and cheat and steal and murder but its cool cause I cant lose my salvation."
  If you spill the milk you gotta clean it up.  Martin Luther in regards said, "Go and let us sin and sin proudly."
  We can lose our salvation, we read it in the Holy Scriptures, and itis what taught by the apostles and early Church fathers.  An idea of such impeccable salvation is not healthy for us mentally, and spiritually. 

     

Saints

The word "saint" comes from the Latin word sanctus, which translates to "consecrated" or "holy."

Saints are men and women who have lived their lives (and very often gave them up freely) in such a way as to be rewarded with the Kingdom of God. The road to being officially recognized by the Church as a saint in a long one. In the earliest stage, the saint-in-the-making is identified as a "Servant of God." That stage is followed by a recognition of being "Venerable" and then "Blessed" before being recognized by the Church as a saint or "Friend of God." This official recognition by the Church as a saint comes at the conclusion of the process and ceremony called "canonization."

These saints, living exemplary lives, provide for us examples to follow so that we may, in turn, follow them to Heaven.

"Feast Days" are recognized for each saint. These feast days are very often the day of the year in which they died, especially if they gave up their lives for their faith. These special saints that gave up their lives for their faith are called "martyrs."

Based on the course of their lives and the circumstances surrounding them, some of the saints serve as "patrons" of certain peoples, places, things, and occupations, as they intercede for us before God.

  Thus, there is another definition of what a Saint is. It is this: One who, with the object of pleasing God, does his ordinary duties extraordinarily well. Such a life may be lived out without a single wonder in it, arouse little notice, be soon forgotten, and yet be the life of one of God's dearest friends.

 

It is obviously an encouragement to look on Sanctity in this way. When we see that those things which so terrified us in the lives of the Saints, because we felt we could not do them ourselves, are not the important part of their sanctity at all, we should feel, therefore, heartened to begin today and make a serious effort for great holiness. Believe this: it is only the first few wrenches given to the will that really hurt.

 

Perhaps the following words of Cardinal Newman will tempt us to take a step forward on the road:

"If you ask me what you are to do in order to be perfect, I say, first, do not lie in bed beyond the time of rising; give your first thoughts to God; make a good visit to the Blessed Sacrament; say the Angelus devoutly; eat and drink to God's glory; say the Rosary well; be recollected; keep out bad thoughts; make your evening meditation well; examine yourself daily; go to bed in good time, and you are already perfect."
Who are called to be saints?

Every person that is born is called to be a Saint. Take it as most certain that you — no matter how unfitted your life may seem for holiness — are being given grace sufficient, if corresponded to, to bring you to Sanctity. We have already seen that nothing beyond our strength is expected; neither is Sanctity the exclusive property of any grade or manner of life. Among the Saints canonized by the Church are kings and beggars, and representatives of every trade, slaves, hermits, city people, mothers of families, invalids, soldiers and persons of every race and color.

 

As a canonized Saint is a pattern provided by God, it is evident that an invitation to become Saints is extended to men and women of every type. It is equally a fact that to those who seriously try to respond to His invitation, He gives help sufficient to carry them to the goal.

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 01:09:36 PM »
Newman,

  What we also have to realize is the significance of saying, well I said I believe in God and Im saved and thats it.  It is very dangerous because we read that God spits those who are "lukewarm" out of His mouth, from the scriptures I posted we are warned over and over by the Apostles about salvation and how if we turn to evil ways we can be "cut off".  There are several spiritual things wrong with this idea and the first one would be accountability:  God call us all to lead a life of Holiness and we try to stride towards Holiness by avoiding occasions of sin (Including mortal) and the inclination to sin this is what is part of what motivates us to Read the Bible, to goto Church, and to receive the sacraments Jesus gave us to receive His sanctifying grace and strength to try and stay on the path of Holiness.  If we believe in this notion of 'I cant lose my salvation' it really takes us down a path of a extremely different mentality and attitude of our spiritual walk.  It does several things, it removes out accountability before God i.e. "I cant lose my salvation God doesn't care how I live my life anymore"  and it also would give us a license to commit sin i.e. "its ok I can fornicate and cheat and steal and murder but its cool cause I cant lose my salvation."
  If you spill the milk you gotta clean it up.  Martin Luther in regards said, "Go and let us sin and sin proudly."
  We can lose our salvation, we read it in the Holy Scriptures, and itis what taught by the apostles and early Church fathers.  An idea of such impeccable salvation is not healthy for us mentally, and spiritually. 

The constant struggle of a Christian is the war between the flesh and the Spirit - our old man, the old creature, wants us to sin.  But the new creation strives to do the will of God, and it is only through faith in Jesus that we can win this war.  We cannot overcome sin on our own, of our own power.  It is only through the power of Christ within us that we can resist temptation. (Read Romans 6-8)

Just out of curiosity, why is it that you believe that the Holy Spirit can preserve the RCC from error, but not individual believers?  Before I accepted Jesus (which is Biblical, as is baptism of the believer, read Acts 8) I had no reason to keep myself from sinning, nor did I feel any regret that I had sinned.  I might be afraid of getting caught, afraid of the consequences, but I had no overall moral compass to say "that is wrong, you shouldn't do that," the abiding principle of my life was "look out for number 1."  Since I accepted Christ, the abiding principle is still "look out for number 1" but I am no longer number 1.  My selfish desires are tempered by the knowledge that Christ would have me put others first, and that His will supercedes my own.  It is only through His strength that I can accomplish this, and sometimes I sin.  But there is a difference between an occasional sin and a lifestyle of sin.  When I sin, I know that I have done wrong, and I feel convicted of that sin - I feel the need to confess it, repent of it, and not to do it again.  Without the moral compass of the Holy Spirit abiding in me, I would feel none of those things.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 04:17:15 PM by |CoR| Bulletproof »
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Guardian

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 03:17:59 PM »
Ok your explanation was nice and all Merlin, but that has nothing to do with the usage of the term Saints in the Bible.  The pattern that God established, in the scriptures, is a simple one.  Believers are saints.  Period.

And Merlin, obviously you are entirely ignorant of the belief of Eternal Security.  Let me again quote Jonathan Edwards, a leading Reformist Theologian in history on the doctrine.

"The Doctrine of Eternal Security, when rightly understood, has brought great comfort to many,
And when wrongly understood, has lead many a soul to hell."

The way you seem to be explaining it, is when people wrongly understand it.  If someone believed in Eternal Security in the way you presented it, then the Reformist theologian agrees, that that person is damned.

It goes back to what is Salvation?  Salvation is the death of the old creature, the birth of the new.  There is no such thing as a true believer in Christ, a truly saved spirit, that is not guided by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  Any soul that feels they have a license to sin, does not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and is thus not a Christian.

I have several times stated that in order to debate with an argument, you first have to properly understand the argument.  Frankly, you're not arguing against Eternal Security, because you don't have a clue about the doctrine.  Your arguments are straw men arguments, based entirely on your made up conceptions of what you incorrectly think it means.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 07:13:44 PM »
Guardian,


 First off I was responding to Bullet proof and conversing with HER and you came in with this "eternal security" I asked show me in the Bible where it says we cant lose our salvation and we went from there....I am probably ignorant of your "eternal security" probably cause I have never heard of it before and that is not what bullet and I were discussing.

Bullet,
  That is very good that you take that attitude but some people don't.

From Guardian. 
Quote
Any soul that feels they have a license to sin, does not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and is thus not a Christian.
  Some people would disagree with that, they read the bible and "accepted Christ" and in their mind was "born again" as you say and now they cant lose their salvation, how are they any less of a Christian then you are?

Guardian

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 07:37:14 PM »
Guardian,


 First off I was responding to Bullet proof and conversing with HER and you came in with this "eternal security" I asked show me in the Bible where it says we cant lose our salvation and we went from there....I am probably ignorant of your "eternal security" probably cause I have never heard of it before and that is not what bullet and I were discussing.

Bullet,
  That is very good that you take that attitude but some people don't.

From Guardian. 
Quote
Any soul that feels they have a license to sin, does not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and is thus not a Christian.
  Some people would disagree with that, they read the bible and "accepted Christ" and in their mind was "born again" as you say and now they cant lose their salvation, how are they any less of a Christian then you are?

lol, I guess that really does prove just how little you know about the subject.

The Doctrine of Eternal Security is the Reformist doctrine which holds that if a believer truly has received the grace of Salvation, that it is absolute, and as such, can not be lost.  So it is perfectly in line with the topic at hand, but obviously you know so little about it, that you didn't even recognize that much.  Let me answer your next question:

Once again, any soul that feels they have a license to sin, and does not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, is not a Christian.  I don't care if in their mind they think they're born again or what.  They're not simply less of a Christian, they're just not Christian.  In order to have Eternal Security, you must first be saved.  You can not serve two masters.  If someone claims they have accepted Christ, but still continue to sin with out conviction and repentance, then their claim is false, and no matter how much they think they accepted Christ, truth is, they still embrace the world as their master, and not the Lord.

So frankly, I don't care if some people disagree.  If you (meaning anyone, not you Merlin) really think you can be a Christian, and not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, then your understanding of Salvation is totally wrong.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2007, 07:41:24 PM »
Actually, I find that sort of attitude to be more prevalent among the Catholics I know, most of whom tend to see a license to do whatever they want as long as they go to confession afterwards. 
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Guardian

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2007, 02:34:01 AM »
Actually, I find that sort of attitude to be more prevalent among the Catholics I know, most of whom tend to see a license to do whatever they want as long as they go to confession afterwards. 

While its definitely quite visible among Catholics, I do notice it appears in subtle ways quite commonly with a lot of so-called Christians that are quite ignorant of the faith.  Not so much in the form of "I can do whatever I want as long as I do this..." but more in the cop-out fashion of "point out someone else's sin" "point out the stuff you do that's not sin" or "tell yourself that while you probably shouldn't sin, God will keep forgiving you no matter what"

The problem is not a problem that comes from bad theology (though bad theology can feed into it!  But its not the source), it is a problem that comes from sinful hearts that seek to find some way to continue to indulge in sinful pleasures, or justify sinful actions.  Just the way that that problem expresses itself is based on a person's limited knowledge of theology.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|
When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 06:51:21 AM »
From Bulletproof,

 
Quote
o see a license to do whatever they want as long as they go to confession afterwards.

  See people can fool themselves but they can not fool God, if I plan to commit a mortal sin and say its ok Ill just goto confession!  And then I goto confession and I am not really sorry and making a TRUE confession that I am sorry before God and asking his forgiveness then God knows that, while the priest still might dispense penance for you, if its not a TRUE REAL confession it is not valid and that person's soul is still in the same state of mortal sin then before they stepped into that confessional.   And also bullet because you know a few that do it seems you think ALL Catholics do it, which could not be further from the truth.

  Guardian,

   
Quote
The Doctrine of Eternal Security is the Reformist doctrine
  Ok so its not a biblical or apostolic doctrine that is all I wanted to know, thanks! :)

|CoR| Vette

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 10:40:43 AM »
Guardian,

   
Quote
The Doctrine of Eternal Security is the Reformist doctrine
  Ok so its not a biblical or apostolic doctrine that is all I wanted to know, thanks! :)

Can you possibly be any more childish Merlin?  I mean seriously, you accuse us of "catholic bashing" and then you continually avoid questions you cannot answer, you leave negative feedback for those who disagree with you, and now you are taking parts of what is being said and twisting them to make them appear to say something else.  You should just stop now, as a Catholic apologist, you are a very poor representative.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!




Guardian

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 01:37:29 PM »
  Guardian,

   
Quote
The Doctrine of Eternal Security is the Reformist doctrine
  Ok so its not a biblical or apostolic doctrine that is all I wanted to know, thanks! :)

You're kidding right?  That is a pretty pitiful way to dismiss something.  So how about this, since something is called a "Catholic Doctrine" since somebody didn't call it a "Biblical" or "Apostolic" doctrine, why should I listen to it?  That sort of silliness doesn't work in honest debate and you know it.

Peace and God Bless!
~Brandon D. Watts
~Guardian
~General of *FR*, |CoR|

When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything. - G.K. Chesterton

Merlin

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 01:52:18 PM »
Hey man your the one that said its a reformist doctrine bro get mad at yourself, LOL at Bullet.

|CoR| Legolas

Re: Catholic Answers Forums
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 01:56:21 PM »
Dude merlin...

Seriously, stop posting. No really...stop.

Goodbye.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 01:59:03 PM by |CoR| Legolas »
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