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|CoR| Whyte Horseman

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2007, 11:46:40 AM »
I tend to agree with Newman.  I think that Catholics could stand with just the fact that she bore the Son of God, and not need to back it up with the energizer-virgin or the Mary that knows no sin.  I think that once they start trying to put those in there, that is where they have their biggest problems.
Ranger "Just guesstimate where the bombsite is and hold the action button."  the action button... silly noob

|CoR| Legolas

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2007, 11:48:05 AM »
Perpetual Virginity is not in that category, but I happen to think that the evidence is sufficient to accept that she chose to remain ever-virgin out of love for God and that Joseph honored her and God by respecting her vow.

See, this is where I have a problem - this idea that by remaining a virgin in marriage, it shows love for God.  As I stated before, seeing as how God created marriage and procreation, it seems if anything an insult to not fully embody the role of a wife as designed by God - and all the acts and responsibilities therein.

My personal intuition is that the reason for Mary's supposed perpetual virginity is an effort to make her more "set apart" from regular humans.  If she were to simply have sex within marriage as any normal couple would do, she would be just a little more "normal".  Catholics seem to enjoy viewing her on a pedestal, and this is one area that can further differentiate her.

I would argue, however, that just the fact that she bore the Son of God makes her special enough.  She doesn't need to have these other "distinguishers" put on her, there is no need to prop her up with claims of perpetual virginity, the simple fact that she was chosen to help usher Jesus Christ into this world makes her perpetually honored indeed.

Good post...good post indeed.

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Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2007, 04:13:20 PM »
Perpetual Virginity is not in that category, but I happen to think that the evidence is sufficient to accept that she chose to remain ever-virgin out of love for God and that Joseph honored her and God by respecting her vow.

See, this is where I have a problem - this idea that by remaining a virgin in marriage, it shows love for God.  As I stated before, seeing as how God created marriage and procreation, it seems if anything an insult to not fully embody the role of a wife as designed by God - and all the acts and responsibilities therein.

My personal intuition is that the reason for Mary's supposed perpetual virginity is an effort to make her more "set apart" from regular humans.  If she were to simply have sex within marriage as any normal couple would do, she would be just a little more "normal".  Catholics seem to enjoy viewing her on a pedestal, and this is one area that can further differentiate her.

I would argue, however, that just the fact that she bore the Son of God makes her special enough.  She doesn't need to have these other "distinguishers" put on her, there is no need to prop her up with claims of perpetual virginity, the simple fact that she was chosen to help usher Jesus Christ into this world makes her perpetually honored indeed.

Newman-

I get where you're coming from...ex-Protestant here, remember?  :D

However, Catholics haven't made her anything...we just tend to focus more on what we know of her than non-Catholics. However, let me address the celibacy issue. This will be in the context of the priesthood, but a vow of celibacy or perpetual virginity applies to Mary also:

Celibacy and the Catholic Priest

Many people believe that the Catholic Church violates the Word of God because it forbids people to marry (cf. 1 Timothy 4:3) or that it is wrong for priests to remain celibate. To get a clearer picture of this issue, let’s examine what the Bible has to say about the subject of celibacy.

Matthew 19:11-12
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Jesus offers the celibate life as a gift and tells us that “The one who can accept this should accept it.”

1 Corinthians 7:1
1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.

1 Corinthians 7:7
7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Paul reveals his own celibacy and offers an earnest wish that more people would follow his example.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Paul concedes that getting married is better than struggling with sexual temptation; for those that “cannot control themselves, they should marry.”

Is Paul completely opposed to marriage? Not at all. The book of Hebrews states:

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Why then does Paul recommend celibacy?

1 Corinthians 7:32-35
32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

From this passage, we can see Paul’s primary reason for advocating celibacy: he wants everyone to live in undivided devotion to the Lord, and in all of these verses, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus calls some men to the priesthood and offers them the gift of a celibate life to be lived in undivided devotion to God. Paul understands that not everyone is offered this gift and that not all to whom it is offered can or will accept it.

There are Catholic priests who are married; typically, these are men who were priests in the Anglican, Orthodox or other faith traditions and have converted to the Catholic faith after they were married in those churches. Under special circumstances, they may be ordained to serve as Catholic priests. Men who are already Catholic when they begin to discern their call to the priesthood must remain celibate.

The Catholic Church forbids no man to marry. However, she does desire that those who will represent Christ, who will stand in persona Christi (in the place of Christ) when administering the sacraments as priests, be like their Lord as fully as possible. This means that like Jesus, they are celibate men prepared to sacrifice their own lives in the service of God and others.

The calling and the gift is offered by God; those who choose to accept it do so freely.
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2007, 04:15:18 PM »
I tend to agree with Newman.  I think that Catholics could stand with just the fact that she bore the Son of God, and not need to back it up with the energizer-virgin or the Mary that knows no sin.  I think that once they start trying to put those in there, that is where they have their biggest problems.

We don't make the news, Whyte Horseman. We just report it.  :)
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Merlin

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2007, 06:11:04 PM »
All,

 I like Randys quotes from most of the major Protestant Reformers that ALL believed in the perpetual virginity, yet Protestants of today dont even believe in what their leaders of what they follow believed in.

Cletus

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2007, 06:21:37 PM »
Because our ultimate authority is the Bible, and the Bible gives no support for such a doctrine.
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Merlin

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2007, 06:27:16 PM »
The Bible doesnt support the Doctrine of the Trinity either.... just pointed out you dont believe what your leaders of the Reformation believed...

Cletus

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2007, 06:50:23 PM »
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1-3,14  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

This is just a sampling of the verses that prove the Trinity.
1 Picture = 1e3 words -Dr. Bowen

1 pferdestarke = 735.498 75 watts

1 crith = 0.000198163 pounds

1 momme  = 0.036 774 938 Newtons

Most awesomest website ever

|CoR| Cool_Hand_Luke

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2007, 07:38:35 PM »
"Stay on target, stay on target..."

By attributing something to somebody that the Bible never gives or states explicitly or implicitly makes you guilty of breaking a major Hermeneutical principle.  When the Bible is silent, we too should be silent, lest we add to the Bible.  The Bible never declares "Mary" as being "Ever-Virgin" or even hints to such an idea.

You can say that it is tradition, believed by the early church fathers, taught through the last centuries, agreed upon by a religious council all day, but unless the New Testament teaches as such in context, then you cannot simply have a Biblical Doctrine just because the RCC has declared it so, even though Scripture does not support it.

Grace & Peace,

Pastor Dade Ronan
|CoR| Pres-Cool_Hand_Luke
Acts 2:38
http://daderonan.com





Reverend

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2007, 08:05:07 PM »
"Stay on target, stay on target..."

By attributing something to somebody that the Bible never gives or states explicitly or implicitly makes you guilty of breaking a major Hermeneutical principle.  When the Bible is silent, we too should be silent, lest we add to the Bible. 

Amen

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2007, 11:31:18 PM »
The Bible doesnt support the Doctrine of the Trinity either.... just pointed out you dont believe what your leaders of the Reformation believed...

Merlin-

Of course the Bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible doesn't use the term "trinity". You were on track, but you overshot here just a wee bit.  :)

The fragmentation of Protestantism (30,000 denominations and growing) is illustrative of a serious flaw in sola scriptura.

The Holy Spirit does not teach one truth about baptism to the Baptist pastor, and a contradictory truth to the Lutheran pastor who are both "men of God" seeking to "rightly divide the word of God."

Clearly, some in that maze of 30,000 denominations, there are more than a few who claim the "Bible Alone" as their rule of faith who are WRONGLY dividing the Word of God.

I'd like for the Baptist and the Methodist and the Lutheran and the Quaker and the Pentecostal to explain to us which of their five positions on baptism is taught perspicuously in the Bible.

Anyone?
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2007, 11:32:03 PM »
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1-3,14  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

This is just a sampling of the verses that prove the Trinity.


Amen!
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2007, 11:35:46 PM »
"Stay on target, stay on target..."

By attributing something to somebody that the Bible never gives or states explicitly or implicitly makes you guilty of breaking a major Hermeneutical principle.  When the Bible is silent, we too should be silent, lest we add to the Bible.  The Bible never declares "Mary" as being "Ever-Virgin" or even hints to such an idea.

You can say that it is tradition, believed by the early church fathers, taught through the last centuries, agreed upon by a religious council all day, but unless the New Testament teaches as such in context, then you cannot simply have a Biblical Doctrine just because the RCC has declared it so, even though Scripture does not support it.



I could just as easily point out that the Bible never teaches anything about the hypostatic union, either. Reverend, are you with me here?

There are SOME truths that we can figure out with the information given to us by God.

But to address the topic of this thread: How well do you think the Apostle John knew Mary?
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

|CoR| Gamil

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2007, 12:36:35 AM »
let me think, if Jesus is the son of Mary and God, then that means that Joseph isn't really his Dad. Right?

So if Joseph isn't really his father, and Jesus' BROTHERs had different mothers, then they must have had the same Father to be BROTHERS. In WHICH case, there must have been other women which God impregnated BESIDES Mary.



sorry if that's already been said, but it's just my 2cents. The logic behind how Mary could be a virin for life AND how Jesus could have human brothers just doesn't add up to me when Joseph is not the BIOLOGICAL father of Jesus.

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Newman

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2007, 12:57:46 AM »
let me think, if Jesus is the son of Mary and God, then that means that Joseph isn't really his Dad. Right?

So if Joseph isn't really his father, and Jesus' BROTHERs had different mothers, then they must have had the same Father to be BROTHERS. In WHICH case, there must have been other women which God impregnated BESIDES Mary.

The Catholics claim that Jesus did not have brothers, but that the word for "brothers" in the Bible actually means cousins.  This is a fairly dubious claim, but it's their stance so it takes care of the situation you mentioned.
I'm looking at you, muwhahaha!!!

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2007, 01:06:49 AM »
let me think, if Jesus is the son of Mary and God, then that means that Joseph isn't really his Dad. Right?

Right. Do you think that Joseph was Jesus' father in the literal blood-kin sense?

Quote
So if Joseph isn't really his father, and Jesus' BROTHERs had different mothers, then they must have had the same Father to be BROTHERS. In WHICH case, there must have been other women which God impregnated BESIDES Mary.

Gamil, how well do you speak Aramaic?  :D

Neither Hebrew nor Greek have a word for "cousins"; the Greek language does, but the men who wrote the NT were native Aramaic speakers who used the Aramaic idiom in which they referred to all distant relations (ie, not uterine kin) as "brothers". Even Abraham referred to Lot as his "brother" even though he was technically Abraham's nephew. No word for cousin in Hebrew...gotta call him something. Brother was the term they used.

Quote
sorry if that's already been said, but it's just my 2cents. The logic behind how Mary could be a virin for life AND how Jesus could have human brothers just doesn't add up to me when Joseph is not the BIOLOGICAL father of Jesus.

I hope this will give you something else to ponder.  :)
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2007, 01:07:43 AM »
let me think, if Jesus is the son of Mary and God, then that means that Joseph isn't really his Dad. Right?

So if Joseph isn't really his father, and Jesus' BROTHERs had different mothers, then they must have had the same Father to be BROTHERS. In WHICH case, there must have been other women which God impregnated BESIDES Mary.

The Catholics claim that Jesus did not have brothers, but that the word for "brothers" in the Bible actually means cousins.  This is a fairly dubious claim, but it's their stance so it takes care of the situation you mentioned.

Dubious? C'mon, Newman...was Lot Abraham's brother or his nephew?

Be honest.  ;)
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

|CoR| Whyte Horseman

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2007, 01:12:08 AM »
You don't need Lot to be Abraham's nephew to cover your butt.  You need Jesus not to have brothers.
Ranger "Just guesstimate where the bombsite is and hold the action button."  the action button... silly noob

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2007, 01:14:35 AM »
You don't need Lot to be Abraham's nephew to cover your butt.  You need Jesus not to have brothers.

That I've got.

What I need is for people to do a little basic research into the Aramaic idiom that was transliterated into the Greek text, capiche?
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

|CoR| Legolas

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2007, 01:17:37 AM »
You don't need Lot to be Abraham's nephew to cover your butt.  You need Jesus not to have brothers.

LOL

What I need is for people to do a little basic research into the Aramaic idiom that was transliterated into the Greek text, capiche?

What I need is for you to admit that this is a possibility, NOT 100% truth. That Mary being a perpetual virgin, is only a theory...not fact.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 01:20:22 AM by |CoR| Legolas »
|CoR| Legolas*GI*     
*STAR* and *PiG* Official Member.

**Eleet computer builder club - 7 Fan Wonder**

Parents need to cowboy up.

Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding.

Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2007, 06:51:04 PM »
What I need is for you to admit that this is a possibility, NOT 100% truth. That Mary being a perpetual virgin, is only a theory...not fact.

Unlike the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has not been declared infallibly.

Historic and consistent evidence suggests that this doctrine has been held by the faithful for many, many centuries.

Hope this helps.  :)
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Stain.

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2007, 10:05:53 PM »
still not scriptural.
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Randy Carson

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2007, 06:13:23 AM »
still not scriptural.

Where does scripture say that everything we can and should believe is contained in scripture?

Scripture itself points to both Tradition and the Church as authoritative.

Do you accept any authority other than the Bible?

Any tradition? Any church?
Randy + <b>†</b> +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." -- Philip Melanchthon (successor of Martin Luther)

Stain.

Re: Mary, Ever-Virgin
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2007, 06:49:27 AM »
still not scriptural.

Where does scripture say that everything we can and should believe is contained in scripture?

Scripture itself points to both Tradition and the Church as authoritative.

Do you accept any authority other than the Bible?

Any tradition? Any church?

Quite frankly no.  My church is a bible preaching church. it it isn't in the bible, my pastor will not preach it.  As Christians, it is our 'job' to weigh what is taught us in light of scripture. If that which is taught doesn't add up, or fit in it is likely not biblical.

I'll post later (when I'm not headding out to work) what my church believes.  We can compare it to scripture and see how the RCC weighs in.
Evga 680i A1 | e6600 @ (testing oc's) | 7900gs ko | G.Skill 2x2gb 800mhz 4.5.4.15 | antec trio 550w | zalman 9500at | WD se16 250GB | WD 500gb | Seagate 500gb | p180b (modded) (1.25tb)
Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
**Eleet computer builder club - Master builder**
Need a PC, send me a pm/email.  I'll build it for ya.
1TB Club | 80gb club
Need someone prank'd?  Hit me up.
crutch - All you gotta do is throw a twinkie on the ground and I'm done.
Anti DB Squad.
I flirt.