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|CoR| Staff



Cupcake

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2008, 11:06:00 AM »
Wow, way to make HVAC sound like it's the easiest job in the world.  Funny though, we do engineering too.  Where I work, I'm the only one that doesn't have a degree in something.  We have some that have their degree in HVAC and we have some that have their degree in Electrical work.  Ask any business owner, they will take experience over a degree any day.  Who would you pick if you owned your own business?  Somebody who has 25 years of experience in your given field and no degree? Or would you take a kid fresh out of college with a shiny new degree who did an internship and that's the extent of their experience?  The fact is, business owners will take on some kids fresh out of college, but if they could only choose one or the other, the experience wins out every time.  So, since you're in engineering, tell me how to design controls for a school or a hospital?  Because if you can't do that, you don't have business working in my field of work.  But me, without a degree, I'm able to do that from my experience.  I'm sure you thought HVAC meant installing furnaces and AC units in houses.  No, I work in controls for Air Handling Units that are the size of a mobile home.  We've done some that are smaller, but they're not anything you'd find in a house.

Stain, we have a lot of people that you would think are illegals (not sure if they are or not) working at McDonald's around here too.  Holland, Michigan has the highest Mexican concentration in the country.  In other words, there are more Mexicans per capita in Holland than any other city in the US.  It's so bad that there's actually border patrol in Holland which has no border with any foreign country.  It doesn't fix however that your comment can be taken badly by those that work McDonald's to do whatever it takes.  McDonald's isn't a bad place to work.  "There's a good place to go when you're broke.  To work."  That's doing whatever it takes.

|CoR| Crutch

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2008, 11:24:18 AM »
The one thing I hate and love are stereotypes. "Mexicans sure work hard..." no they don't. Some men work hard because they are good workers. Be it black, white, blue or violet. I have worked with a all black and white team vrs a mexican team and beat them hands down every day in the housing industry. The only reason why we separated them was because no one spoke Spanish. I'm not trying to be ugly, but I have worked beside some very decent people of all colors, then again, I have visited one of my former workers house and found half my tools in his livening room. He happened to be Hispanic, and not illegal.

Here is why I do not want illegals here. One out of EVERY third prisoner in our jails is an illegal immigrant.

Gun locks are stupid. Everyone should have a gun room or safe room. One with polymethyl methacrylate lighting that is inset to be blast resistant. One with lead mesh  and steal rebar to better fortify the rooms integrity both physically and thermally. One with an escape hatch, remote exterior tear gas, surveillance, air filtration, and alternate power. NOW THATS A GUN LOCK!

I feel that illegal imagrants are laughing at America and abusing good will. Even if they are here with good intentions, the social and economical damages are inarguable. I do not speak Spanish, I work hard (harder then most people I have met), I fly an AMERICAN flag, I have never been arrested, nor lived here illegally. However ever much I flirt with it.

The Problem with having leaders in a church that are Illegally here is that it is 100% counter biblical. I believe the bible says something about being beyond reproach. I mean think about it. When a kid says "well you break the law every day, do I really have to not smoke pot?" How can he justify it? There ARE legal ways to come to America. Thats a fact.

|CoR| Crutch

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2008, 11:30:56 AM »
Cupcake, only the Government hires people because of the degree they have. Some positions don't even specify why that degree has to be. You can be a professor of basket weaving and get the job. However as an employeer, I have learned how to read a resume. Here is the secret.

For every 3 years of experience I count that as 1 year of college. 25 years on the job, is WAY better then a 4 year degree.

However in my line of work, you don't go to school to learn copy written trades.

Also as an employeer, if I can't talk to you, American or not, I wont hire you. So leave Ebonics, hilly billy, spanish, French, and Pig latin at the door, because unless you speak Slavic or English, I don't need ya. I wont even give you a resume.

Cupcake

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2008, 12:06:49 PM »
So leave Ebonics, hilly billy, spanish, French, and Pig latin at the door, because unless you speak Slavic or English, I don't need ya. I wont even give you a resume.

Hilly Billy, now that's funny right there. 

My question to Stain is this, if it is the church's responsibility to take care of the poor and not the Governments, what are you or your church doing to help out?  I'm with you on the idea, the church should help out, but unfortunately not every church and not every church member does that.  If you are not tithing to your church, you are not doing your part.  The poor are poor and will stay that way until you tithe and your church starts doing something about the community.  Not trying to toot my church's horn, just using this as an example, my church has adopted the public school that is in our neighborhood.  We gave them their years worth the school supplies so that they could keep a full time tutor on staff.  The cool thing is we didn't know that we were doing that.  The principle decided to not buy supplies so that she could keep the tutor.  A week later, we called her up and said, "Hey we have a bunch of school supplies for you."  We now volunteer there and do all sorts of things with them.  In November the children of the school nominated us as their Hero of the month.  The church I go to isn't in a terribly poor area, but it's not rich.  Most of the kids that go to this school are under the poverty line or are lower-middle class.  As a member of this church it makes me feel proud to go there, but if I didn't do my part and tithe, and others in my church didn't tithe, this wouldn't be happening. 

So what are you doing?  Are you helping out at your church or are you a bystander?  There are 3 things I can tell you about Tithe.  1.  You give God 10% of what was already His and he gives you 90% of what is His.  2.  When you start to tithe, you start to flourish financially.  This may be because it forces you to budget and notice where your money is going, or as I like to see it, God sees your faithfulness and blesses you immensely.  3. Your spiritual life isn't what it could and should be until you start to tithe.  Tithe makes you rely on God.  Especially when you have to live paycheck to paycheck.

**End Sermon**

|CoR| fishBurger

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2008, 12:12:40 PM »
Gun locks are stupid. Everyone should have a gun room or safe room. One with polymethyl methacrylate lighting that is inset to be blast resistant. One with lead mesh  and steal rebar to better fortify the rooms integrity both physically and thermally. One with an escape hatch, remote exterior tear gas, surveillance, air filtration, and alternate power. NOW THATS A GUN LOCK!

I would love to have a secured armory in my house, but I can't afford it (I'd spend to stock the armory first anyways). I only own one gun, and didn't buy it retail so I don't have a gun lock, but if I had kids or any children around I would put extra effort into securing it.
It is a state of mind born of bold will, intellect, initiative, and ruthless opportunism.

|CoR| teb

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2008, 12:12:59 PM »
Cupcake, only the Government hires people because of the degree they have. Some positions don't even specify why that degree has to be. You can be a professor of basket weaving and get the job. However as an employeer, I have learned how to read a resume. Here is the secret.

For every 3 years of experience I count that as 1 year of college. 25 years on the job, is WAY better then a 4 year degree.

Thats not exactly true.  I was turned down by a few non government companies because I didn't even meet their minimum required GPA of all things, I was off by .1 and that was cause enough not to give me a second thought. 

But I do agree with the work experience stuff, but I think alot of companies that are hiring white collar workers like it when a candidate has both the degree and experience the most.  Plus having a degree or 2 or 3 gives the aura that you are a hard worker because of the fact that the person went to a place of higher learning for 4-8 years.  And if your debt free after doing that, your real smart because you probably had someone else pay for it :P
Quote from: Phooey
you just can't fix stupid.

|CoR| Xphile

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2008, 12:27:18 PM »
No liberal nowadays is going to advocate banning the sale of guns completely - not even one of the most liberal members of Congress (Pelosi) advocates that, so I don't know why people keep repeating this sort of stuff.

Clark Garen does. Really, though, your statement is beyond absurd. It's doesn't take much searching to find all kinds of sites advocating just that (or very nearly).

I can't see why anybody would want a degree for HVAC work... contracting stuff like that which is heavy on manual labor = nobody expects a degree.

I anticipate seeing your house on Holmes on Homes then.  :icon_lol:
Always have your stuff when you need it with @Dropbox. 2GB account is free! http://db.tt/f9OzdnS

Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2008, 01:48:27 PM »
Before we go too far, I'm a bit shocked by some of the opinions expressed by people who claim to be Christians.

If we're going to discuss politics as a Christian orginization, then I suggest backing up opinions with theology.  I'm not advocating Throcracy mind you (and I know as some of you would be quick to jump to), but if Christians are going to voice their opinions in politics, then its high time we voiced them with true Christian theology.

So much of politics comes down to Morality, and morality has its ultimate source in God does it not?  So if we are to argue morality and policy, then we should do so from a proper theology.  If you cannot scripturally defend an opinion, then why hold it?

Remember that Jesus calls us to love him and further HIS kingdom.  Not the kingdom of any nation or power.  American centered theology is bad theology, yet more Christians voice politics from an America first perspective as opposed to a Christ's Kingdom first perspective.

I am a bit appalled at the discussion I've seen regarding Illegal aliens, and some people's explicit admission of racism.  We are all created by God and loved by Him.  We are all Gentiles yet he loves us regardless of race or nation of birth.  That all men are created equal was the initial concept this country was founded upon, that has its roots in Biblical and theological expression and cannot be forgotten now.  As an immigrant myself with many family members who are immigrants, it is a far more complex issue than, "They shouldn't be here so we should deny them rights so they'll leave."  On average it costs about $10,000 for all of the fees and various costs associated with immigrating to America, unless you know the right lawyer, who can bump the fees down, but then charges his own fees.  Not to mention the fact that it can often take over five years to legally process documents and approve an immegration. 

What should our response be to illegals in our country from a theologically correct perspective be?  Yes, they are here illegally, yes they violated immegration law, but imagine someone who finds their own conditions so destitute they would prefer to risk the crossing of the border and find the life here in a country known for its hope and opportunity.  These people are not criminal masterminds, but people motivated to leave all they knew behind in search of a better place for themselves and their children.  Should our response be, "Well, you sir made a mistake and we shall punish you to the utmost?"  Or should our response be that or grace and mercy?

Quote
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Illegals are the least of these.  In our society, they are the bottom rung.  They are strangers, often without anything to eat.  And yes, even often in prison. 

But a CHRISTIAN response should not be to go straight to the deport hammer.

If you can give me a better, theologically correct method of which to deal with illegal immigrants, I am all ears.  But if we are going to be God's people, if we are going to be part of the body of Christ, lets start acting like it.  And not just on Sundays, but with our whole lives and with our politics. 

Let's stop debating based on conservate/liberal lines, and start talking politics based on God's idea of goodness and morality.
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


|CoR| Crutch

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2008, 01:53:54 PM »
Gun locks are stupid. Everyone should have a gun room or safe room. One with polymethyl methacrylate lighting that is inset to be blast resistant. One with lead mesh  and steal rebar to better fortify the rooms integrity both physically and thermally. One with an escape hatch, remote exterior tear gas, surveillance, air filtration, and alternate power. NOW THATS A GUN LOCK!

I would love to have a secured armory in my house, but I can't afford it (I'd spend to stock the armory first anyways). I only own one gun, and didn't buy it retail so I don't have a gun lock, but if I had kids or any children around I would put extra effort into securing it.

You can do it on a budget brother. You can even set it up so that people wont even know what they are stepping into. Dry wall everything.  :D

|CoR| fishBurger

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2008, 02:11:44 PM »
I can't afford a second addition to my gun collection, I can't afford a secure armory disguised or not.

Excellent points, Ryan. Excellent points.
It is a state of mind born of bold will, intellect, initiative, and ruthless opportunism.

Cupcake

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2008, 02:51:58 PM »
As far as I know, nobody said that we should deny them any rights.  As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be here though.  Does this make me racist?  No.  It's not limited to Mexicans.  It's anybody and everybody who is here illegally.  Canadians, Cubans, Europeans, Asians, anybody here illegally, should be sent home.  It may cost $10,000 to get everything processed, but you don't have to pay it off all at once.  If you need a job to pay the fees, well then come here on a work visa, get hired in that way, pay your taxes, save your money until you can gain citizenship and pay for it.  You can get work visas and they don't cost very much.

I agree that we should show people the grace of God and help them, as a church we should help people attain their citizenship.  But that doesn't mean that we should just let their be free range of the border.  If that makes me a racist well so be it.  I guess I'm racist in your eyes. 

Just a thought on the side, maybe the government should open up an express program.  If you wish to become a citizen you can join the military for a certain period of time and you won't have to pay any legalization fees.  As soon as you join, you and your family are citizens.  If I lived in a foreign country and wanted to be a US Citizen I'd go for that deal.

|CoR| beepbeepiamajeep

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2008, 03:02:06 PM »
Romans 2 12

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Everyone who is here illegally is sinning.

I like cupcakes idea bout the military thing.

But not the whole family, just your wife and kids. Like immediate family.

Stain.

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #132 on: March 05, 2008, 03:05:23 PM »
As far as I know, nobody said that we should deny them any rights.  As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be here though.  Does this make me racist?  No.  It's not limited to Mexicans.  It's anybody and everybody who is here illegally.  Canadians, Cubans, Europeans, Asians, anybody here illegally, should be sent home.  It may cost $10,000 to get everything processed, but you don't have to pay it off all at once.  If you need a job to pay the fees, well then come here on a work visa, get hired in that way, pay your taxes, save your money until you can gain citizenship and pay for it.  You can get work visas and they don't cost very much.

I agree that we should show people the grace of God and help them, as a church we should help people attain their citizenship.  But that doesn't mean that we should just let their be free range of the border.  If that makes me a racist well so be it.  I guess I'm racist in your eyes. 

Just a thought on the side, maybe the government should open up an express program.  If you wish to become a citizen you can join the military for a certain period of time and you won't have to pay any legalization fees.  As soon as you join, you and your family are citizens.  If I lived in a foreign country and wanted to be a US Citizen I'd go for that deal.

Cupcake, you racist. :D

I'm totally game for LEGAL imigration, and faster processing for those who are productive in society.  It would be a good test to see if they want to be here to give them a path to citizenship via serving in our military.  The big scare with that would be some muslim/islamic extreemist America hater joining and going 'crazy' when he got his hands on a gun or something more destructive.  That'd be my only qualm...
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Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
**Eleet computer builder club - Master builder**
Need a PC, send me a pm/email.  I'll build it for ya.
1TB Club | 80gb club
Need someone prank'd?  Hit me up.
crutch - All you gotta do is throw a twinkie on the ground and I'm done.
Anti DB Squad.
I flirt.

|CoR| Crutch

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #133 on: March 05, 2008, 03:13:42 PM »
As a man I follow the law. Not because I have to but because God says that I should. Read romans for a Christians response. If I wanted to, I could break many laws and no one would know anything of it. It wouldn't effect them at all. However I would know. As a Christian I buckle my seat belt. I think its stupid but its the law.

So as a Christian the LAW tells me to treat them as criminals. I am not to hire them, no sell them property. I can give them charity, and the gift of the gospel how ever I will never hire them. I don't care what race they are. If you think I am racist, then you are mistaken to the level of mean that I truly am.

I am not intolerant of race, no sir, that list is far to short. I am intolerant of evil, corruption, and the larger biblical sins. (but crutch one sin isn't greater then the other) Getting drunk isn't the same as rape, in my eyes even if it is in Gods. So you may be right, but I only got my eyes for now.

So, we are to answer this in a Christian light? Fine. When I see an illegal, I should call the police, follow them, and make sure they are properly deported. Thats what the law says and the bible says follow the law.

Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #134 on: March 05, 2008, 03:22:21 PM »
But the problem, my good gorilla man, is that a good chunk of it is due before one is legally allowed to work.  And then one must stay in the country while things are being processed. 

The Canadian fees to immigrate are 1/10th the American, and that is still an issue.  When you owe thousands of dollars, cannot work, and will not be able to work for at least a year if not five, it makes things VERY difficult to do it legally.

Not that is is right to break immidgation laws mind you, but for many people, it feels like the only option.  The root of the problem isn't "Those damned dirty immigrants" and deporting them isn't going to solve the problem, we need real immigration reform that allows people a legetimate alternative to illegally entering.

Furthermore, for all of you who cry "deport them!" how do you propose doing that?  Any policing budget that was there for the deportation of illegals is gone.  I know a few state troopers who won't do a thing about an illegal because they have no budget for it.  Tracking, detaining and transporting a few million people will require quite an expenditure of money, and where do you suggest we get that money from?  Where do you find the manpower to begin this work?  How do you propose we go about this and respect due process and a fair hearing?  How do you keep them from coming right back once you do deport them?

This isn't such a simplistic problem.  There are too many people here already, and the root causes have to be addressed if we are ever going to actually solve the issue.

Amnisty isn't fair to those who came in legally, who paid their dues and went through the headaches and hardships that it takes to move to America.  But the system is obviously not getting us the results we desire.  How do we fix our system of immigration?  That is the real question.  For those of you opposed to illegals, how do you solve the root causes?  How do you suggest we fix things?  And how do you suggest we do it with good theology?
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #135 on: March 05, 2008, 03:28:34 PM »
Getting drunk isn't the same as rape, in my eyes even if it is in Gods. So you may be right, but I only got my eyes for now.

And this is your problem.  If you're unwilling to change to see people as God sees them, then how can you call yourself a follower of God?  How can you say "I am a little Christ" if you draw the line at your own ideas?  How can you claim that your own ideas of morality supersede those of the God who created morality in the first place?

Jesus said, if your eye causes you to sin, then gouge it out.  It's harsh, but that is our example and our God. 

You're not God, yet you put your ideas above His.  And that is dangerous ground.
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


Stain.

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #136 on: March 05, 2008, 03:31:11 PM »
how do we get the money to deport people?

Cut silly government programs that are abused, create new ones to replace those, but impose stricter regulations.

Use the leftover moneys to deport people...

It *could* be done at a state level since I don't think all states have the same percentage of illegals, hence vermont shouldn't be taxed on it the same as texas, new mexico or california.
Evga 680i A1 | e6600 @ (testing oc's) | 7900gs ko | G.Skill 2x2gb 800mhz 4.5.4.15 | antec trio 550w | zalman 9500at | WD se16 250GB | WD 500gb | Seagate 500gb | p180b (modded) (1.25tb)
Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
**Eleet computer builder club - Master builder**
Need a PC, send me a pm/email.  I'll build it for ya.
1TB Club | 80gb club
Need someone prank'd?  Hit me up.
crutch - All you gotta do is throw a twinkie on the ground and I'm done.
Anti DB Squad.
I flirt.

Stain.

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #137 on: March 05, 2008, 03:36:32 PM »
Getting drunk isn't the same as rape, in my eyes even if it is in Gods. So you may be right, but I only got my eyes for now.

And this is your problem.  If you're unwilling to change to see people as God sees them, then how can you call yourself a follower of God?  How can you say "I am a little Christ" if you draw the line at your own ideas?  How can you claim that your own ideas of morality supersede those of the God who created morality in the first place?

Jesus said, if your eye causes you to sin, then gouge it out.  It's harsh, but that is our example and our God. 

You're not God, yet you put your ideas above His.  And that is dangerous ground.

Would you honestly treat someone who lied to you the same as someone who killed your child? I would view them differently due to their consequences.  Someone who lied to you can gain trust over time by proving they are sorry for their wrong.  If you kill my kid, there's nothing you can do to bring him back. (i don'thave a kid right now but I plan on it sometime)

To God there is no different, but me there's a world of difference between someone who lies and someone who molests a child. As a Husband and someday a dad, you bet I'll treat different sins of my children differently and view them differently...

Didn't God, in the old testament, have different penalties for different sins?  some where in leviticus.. I'll have to look that up when I get the time.
Evga 680i A1 | e6600 @ (testing oc's) | 7900gs ko | G.Skill 2x2gb 800mhz 4.5.4.15 | antec trio 550w | zalman 9500at | WD se16 250GB | WD 500gb | Seagate 500gb | p180b (modded) (1.25tb)
Just gestimate where the bomb-site is, and hold the action button - R4nger
I dropped my stupid phone in the toilet.... - R4nger
**Eleet computer builder club - Master builder**
Need a PC, send me a pm/email.  I'll build it for ya.
1TB Club | 80gb club
Need someone prank'd?  Hit me up.
crutch - All you gotta do is throw a twinkie on the ground and I'm done.
Anti DB Squad.
I flirt.

Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2008, 03:39:55 PM »
Romans 2 12

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Everyone who is here illegally is sinning.

I like cupcakes idea bout the military thing.

But not the whole family, just your wife and kids. Like immediate family.

If you're going to use the Bible, use it right.  That wasn't US immigration law Paul was refering to, but the Law of Moses as set forth for the Jewish people. 

We as Christians can stand up as advocates of grace and freedom, we have the ability to extend forgiveness and unmerited grace.  We have the opportunity to reach out to the least of these.  Yes, people here illegally are sinning, but so are a lot of people who are US citizens.  Why not extend grace while we can? 

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize those already here?  How does it hinder our nation?  So many illegals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, many of them are better at being Americans then our own citizens.  Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?  Or even good sense?
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2008, 03:46:14 PM »
Getting drunk isn't the same as rape, in my eyes even if it is in Gods. So you may be right, but I only got my eyes for now.

And this is your problem.  If you're unwilling to change to see people as God sees them, then how can you call yourself a follower of God?  How can you say "I am a little Christ" if you draw the line at your own ideas?  How can you claim that your own ideas of morality supersede those of the God who created morality in the first place?

Jesus said, if your eye causes you to sin, then gouge it out.  It's harsh, but that is our example and our God. 

You're not God, yet you put your ideas above His.  And that is dangerous ground.

Would you honestly treat someone who lied to you the same as someone who killed your child? I would view them differently due to their consequences.  Someone who lied to you can gain trust over time by proving they are sorry for their wrong.  If you kill my kid, there's nothing you can do to bring him back. (i don'thave a kid right now but I plan on it sometime)

To God there is no different, but me there's a world of difference between someone who lies and someone who molests a child. As a Husband and someday a dad, you bet I'll treat different sins of my children differently and view them differently...

Didn't God, in the old testament, have different penalties for different sins?  some where in leviticus.. I'll have to look that up when I get the time.

Sure there were different penalties for different infractions of the law, but we're not under the law.  Which is good, because I'm wearing a cotton poly blend shirt, I don't have tassles on my clothing, I trim my beard, I had pork for lunch, and I sometimes my wife and I get a little frisky even when her aunt is vistitng (That one is punishable by death too).

But we're not under the law anymore, we're under grace.  And my duty as a Christian is to love and forgive any and all.

Quote
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

If someone lied to me, or if someone killed my as-of-yet-hypothetical child, my response has to be the same.  To forgive.  One might be easier than the other, but my response is to be nothing less.

As Jesus said:
Quote
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


Gear

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2008, 03:49:24 PM »
Dear Lord,
Please send someone to lower the Gas prices!!!!!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 03:54:09 PM by |CoR| Gear »
ANTI-DB SQUAD!!

|CoR| beepbeepiamajeep

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2008, 03:58:06 PM »
Romans 2 12

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Everyone who is here illegally is sinning.

I like cupcakes idea bout the military thing.

But not the whole family, just your wife and kids. Like immediate family.

If you're going to use the Bible, use it right.  That wasn't US immigration law Paul was refering to, but the Law of Moses as set forth for the Jewish people. 

We as Christians can stand up as advocates of grace and freedom, we have the ability to extend forgiveness and unmerited grace.  We have the opportunity to reach out to the least of these.  Yes, people here illegally are sinning, but so are a lot of people who are US citizens.  Why not extend grace while we can? 

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize those already here?  How does it hinder our nation?  So many illegals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, many of them are better at being Americans then our own citizens.  Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?  Or even good sense?

I do my best to follow the law. The law says illegals are illegal. If the law said people could move from any country and live here i wouldnt have a problem with it. I believe God tells us to follow the law untill the law doesnt follow God.

But the problem, my good gorilla man, is that a good chunk of it is due before one is legally allowed to work.  And then one must stay in the country while things are being processed. 

The Canadian fees to immigrate are 1/10th the American, and that is still an issue.  When you owe thousands of dollars, cannot work, and will not be able to work for at least a year if not five, it makes things VERY difficult to do it legally.

Not that is is right to break immidgation laws mind you, but for many people, it feels like the only option.  The root of the problem isn't "Those damned dirty immigrants" and deporting them isn't going to solve the problem, we need real immigration reform that allows people a legetimate alternative to illegally entering.

Well If you dont have enough money to do it legally then i guess your out of luck., hate to be mean but i tell things the way they are. the world is not fair get over it

Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2008, 04:00:06 PM »
And before my arguments now get accused of hypocracy, I think in public policy, there is a distinction to be made between crimes in respect to justice.  The Jewish law is an example of that.  When drafting public policy, I think it is fair to say, grant amnesty to illegals who's only crime was wanting to be in america, and granting amnesty to child rapists. 

Individual Christians should engage each with love and forgiveness, but I do think on a policy level, we can follow the example of God's laws when drafting our own laws. 

When you look at illegals, their sin can actually be aleviated by policy.  So why not?  I wish someone would give me a good argument on why the illegals who are here and are part of our society are a bad thing.
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


Stain.

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2008, 04:00:56 PM »
so, you provocate grace to everyone regardless of them breaking the law, and not caring about it?!? 

Doen't the bible say something along the lines of should we extend grace to them so they can abuse it more? . . . wait.. that's wrong... it's along the lines of sinning so that you can ask for forgiveness over and over and over again.

Which is essentially what they are doing, yes?  Then again, they do not know they are in the wrong untill they are told they are wrong, thus making them ignorant of their wrong... or unknowledgeable.

Point being is, they are here wrongfully, doing nothing about it (some are as we learned earlier), and we are supposed to reward them for their wrong or forget about it?

back to the person who killed your kid...  He kills one of them, you forgive him and whatnot, then he ends up killing another.  It could go on for a while unless you buck up and decide "hey, this isn't a good scenario.  I need to do something about it."  What do you do?  You kick him out of your life, and push the law on said person.

I know that's a radical thought for a Christian who's tied up in "grace for all!" but isn't God also the "God of wrath"?  As we all know there are consiquences for your sins (I spell that word wrong all the time.. jeesh), just because you are forgiven doesn't mean the aftermath goes away too.

Back to what Some of us are saying - Laws need to be inforced to the extend that we can in cases where the base of our security can be at risk.

Isn't the only law that's biblically OK to break is the ones regarding Christians being silent about our love for Christ?  Correct me on that if I'm wrong.
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Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #144 on: March 05, 2008, 04:09:11 PM »
Romans 2 12

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Everyone who is here illegally is sinning.

I like cupcakes idea bout the military thing.

But not the whole family, just your wife and kids. Like immediate family.

If you're going to use the Bible, use it right.  That wasn't US immigration law Paul was refering to, but the Law of Moses as set forth for the Jewish people. 

We as Christians can stand up as advocates of grace and freedom, we have the ability to extend forgiveness and unmerited grace.  We have the opportunity to reach out to the least of these.  Yes, people here illegally are sinning, but so are a lot of people who are US citizens.  Why not extend grace while we can? 

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize those already here?  How does it hinder our nation?  So many illegals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, many of them are better at being Americans then our own citizens.  Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?  Or even good sense?

I do my best to follow the law. The law says illegals are illegal. If the law said people could move from any country and live here i wouldnt have a problem with it. I believe God tells us to follow the law untill the law doesnt follow God.

But the problem, my good gorilla man, is that a good chunk of it is due before one is legally allowed to work.  And then one must stay in the country while things are being processed. 

The Canadian fees to immigrate are 1/10th the American, and that is still an issue.  When you owe thousands of dollars, cannot work, and will not be able to work for at least a year if not five, it makes things VERY difficult to do it legally.

Not that is is right to break immidgation laws mind you, but for many people, it feels like the only option.  The root of the problem isn't "Those damned dirty immigrants" and deporting them isn't going to solve the problem, we need real immigration reform that allows people a legetimate alternative to illegally entering.

Well If you dont have enough money to do it legally then i guess your out of luck., hate to be mean but i tell things the way they are. the world is not fair get over it

But we have an opportunity to change the law.  And the whole point of this debate is that some people say it is foolish to do so.  If our only argument is "well, they broke the law" then why is it bad if we just go ahead and change the law?

And, yes, it does {Please choose a better word} to be me right now.  I have actually be battleing with depression and other not fun things because life has been a {Please choose a better word} shoot.  So forgive me if I have a little sympathy because I've seen how amazingly hard it is for some people, myself included.
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


|CoR| Xphile

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
Yes, people here illegally are sinning, but so are a lot of people who are US citizens.  Why not extend grace while we can?

Do you mean we give US citizens amnesty for laws they break?

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize those already here?  How does it hinder our nation?

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize the US citizens who have already broken laws? How does it hinder our nation?

So many illegals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, many of them are better at being Americans then our own citizens.  Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?

So many US citizen criminals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, and they are already our own citizens. Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?

US citizens who break the law and are caught go into the Justice System and are prosecuted under the law. Why are you suggesting it isn't Christlike for people breaking immigration laws to be treated the same way?

When you look at illegals, their sin can actually be aleviated by policy.

Yes, let's just give amnesty for breaking any law that people don't care to obey.
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|CoR| beepbeepiamajeep

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2008, 04:28:08 PM »


When you look at illegals, their sin can actually be aleviated by policy.  So why not?  I wish someone would give me a good argument on why the illegals who are here and are part of our society are a bad thing.

some1 said earlier that 1/3rd of illegals are in prison. thers you a bad thing.

hospitals have to charge more because if illegals go there and cant pay they cant refuse...2 bad things.

Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2008, 04:39:41 PM »
Yes, people here illegally are sinning, but so are a lot of people who are US citizens.  Why not extend grace while we can?

Do you mean we give US citizens amnesty for laws they break?

That might have been poorly worded on my part (But some of your questions aren't very good X, I expected better from you! :))

Basically, the only law these people are breaking is a poor one.  Our immigration system is broken.  For those who argue that since they broke the law, they have sinned and therefore deserve punishment, I say why not change the law? 

A lot of people sin, we've got a big country full of blasphoemers and fornicators, but we haven't made that illegal.  Really, it's a poor parallel, and I recant that. 

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize those already here?  How does it hinder our nation?

Who, exactly, does it hurt to legitimize the US citizens who have already broken laws? How does it hinder our nation?[/quote]

I've agreed that my previous parallel was poor.  But if jaywalking were to be suddenly legitimized, would that be a bad thing?  Most laws work because they are for specific infractions.  You drive a car while drunk, you get a DUI, you stab someone, you steal money.....  The problem with immegration law is that one's mere presence becomes illegal.  In order to deal with the problem, you can't just not worry about those who didn't get caught. 

If we make immigration reforms, we still have the issue of how do we deal with those who are already here, who have established jobs and lives and children who are citizens?  If we just deport the lot of them, we only create more hardship and a great deal more headache for all.

So, again, I apologize for my poor argument before, but I still pose the question. 

So many illegals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, many of them are better at being Americans then our own citizens.  Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?

So many US citizen criminals are here paying taxes, participating in our system, and they are already our own citizens. Can anyone please tell me why de-humanizing them and treating them like criminals is Christlike?[/quote] 
It isn't.  Dehumanizing anyone is not Christlike.  If a criminal has done their time, they have done their time.  Some warrant further scrutiny because of their liklehood of reoffending (ie sex offenders), but it isn't Christlike to dehumanize anyone, period.  Even inmates deserve dignity and human rights.

Quote
US citizens who break the law and are caught go into the Justice System and are prosecuted under the law. Why are you suggesting it isn't Christlike for people breaking immigration laws to be treated the same way?
Because of the motiviation the people had in breaking the law.  Show me a speeder with a wife in labor and I'll show you a guy who in all liklehood doesn't get a ticket.  Show me a man who shoots an intruder and you have justified homicide. 

When you look at illegals, their sin can actually be aleviated by policy.

Quote
Yes, let's just give amnesty for breaking any law that people don't care to obey.

That's just over the top hyperbole.
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


Ryan

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2008, 04:41:36 PM »


When you look at illegals, their sin can actually be aleviated by policy.  So why not?  I wish someone would give me a good argument on why the illegals who are here and are part of our society are a bad thing.

some1 said earlier that 1/3rd of illegals are in prison. thers you a bad thing.

hospitals have to charge more because if illegals go there and cant pay they cant refuse...2 bad things.

Two unrelated "bad things"  The same can be said of those in low income situations.  In fact, probably moreso than illegals.  And because illegals tend to be in low income demographics, you're confusing your issues. 

Poverty is an issue, one we have to face, and one Jesus talked about quite a bit. 
As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had ... more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

- Mike Huckabee


|CoR| fishBurger

Re: 2008 Election
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2008, 05:35:36 PM »
Amidst all the statements that 'illegal immigrants are here illegally, the laws should be enforced" can someone tell me specifically what the federal law states in regards to illegal immigration?

This is an honest question, and I'm sure some of you can come up with great sources quick.. but I'm ignorant of what the legislated punishment is for being an illegal alien.
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